See, here on Iran, I disagree. It's not *necessarily* religious fanaticism that will cause them to be willing to bomb Israel for the hell of it, but they'll want to do it anyways and likely will. It's called justify it before for political reasons, then justify the slaughter afterwords for religious reasions.
Even if the Iran government doesn't do it directly, we can hardly trust them to keep the bomb out of the hands of the fanatics among their people.
"reasonable" manipulation of popular emotions, perhaps, but unreasonable to most of the west that value life over death in any instance.
Kim is an idiot, by your very justifications. His problem is in seeing "the bomb" as the means to cooperation rather than economics and offering incentives for foreign companies to build factories to compete with China and South Korea. If foreign companies come in to build factories, they'll pay to clean up the agriculture they've so abused for the last 2 decades. He ignores the fact that the very "bomb" he wants creates the very instability in the region that keeps companies from offering to move in and help him. He thinks that governments are more important than corporations in providing economic support, and that is utterly wrong and ignorant.
As for the Russians and the Chinese? Well, someone more influential than Bush (it can't be that hard to find someone) needs to tell them to get those countries in their "sphere" to clean up their acts. Really, China needs to be the victim of terrorism one of these days so they'll wake up and actually do something about their so-called "allies" out there.
What could terrorists do to China that China would give a crap about? Kill people? China regularly puts down peasant, union, civilian unreast. They don't give a damn about dead civilians. And if Uyghur separatists out in the Western boonies give them trouble, they'll just slaughter the lot.
Terrorism works on US because a) US is run by morons and b) US general population hasn't had to come to terms with dead innocents since 1861 and thus has no sense of proportion. It wouldn't work in China, and it doesn't work in Russia.
Terrorism also works on the US because the US is used to being the ones employing the terrorism, as opposed to having it used on them. (See David Neiwert's brilliant series on eliminationism in US history for some really good examples, starting with the genocide of the Native Americans.) Half the reaction is "Bu-bu-but-but...you can't do that to us!!" straight out of good old American Exceptionalism.
I have to agree with Leo here. Like China would care if Iran did anything to them, whatever "doing anything to them" might entail. Me, I'm still not entirely convinced that Iran is in any substantive way, at a state level, connected with terrorism. Sure, I hear a lot about Iran being a "state sponsor of terrorism," but I hear that in the US media, and apply grains of salt liberally. Name some names. Show some connections. Or, as we used to say in debates, "State your sources." More bluntly, put up or shut up. Otherwise, it's just more of the same Colin-Powell-at-the-UN bullshit. I feel sorry anyone who believed that at the time; they need their gullibility meter reset, and the service fees are a bitch.
I'm also not entirely convinced that Iran is as after Israel as all that, either. It seems to me as though Ahmadinejad's rhetorical excesses (and please see Juan Cole or another actual Farsi speaker for an accurate translation of that "wiped from the map" thing, which is not what he said; the actual phrasing was a metaphor from a classical poem and wasn't even close in meaning) is what some people would call "fronting." He's got an image to maintain, and while he probably doesn't like Israel all that much, I'm not so sure he's dumb or crazy enough to push the Israelis too far. (God knows, when one of the neighbours does something dumb and provocative like that, I can hear the sound of millions of Israeli eyes rolling and muttering "Oi, ma pitom!" or the Hebrew variant on "Bitch, please!" -- and I'm in Canada.) All this latest anti-Semitic stuff Iran has been doing reads to me like a bid for credibility with the other Islamic states in the region -- keep in mind, they're Arab, Iran is not.
I think that's basically what North Korea has been doing, too. As soon as that stupid bastard (good frickin' riddance to bad rubbish) Frum put the "Axis of Evil" thing in Bush's mouth, Kim got all nervous, and not without reason -- he knows that the US' favourite pastime in international relations is replacing people like him with "Christian heroin warlords most friendly to the West." Funny how that is, you scare someone really badly like that, when he's already in a desperate situation, and he does something stupid (see also Fidel Castro jailing dissidents in the wake of threats from the US and after decades of economic embargo and several US-planned assassination attempts).
The US should absolutely talk to anyone and everyone. They should also quit acting like they own half the world and have a lien on the rest...but like either of those two things are going to happen any time soon...
Talking to Iran is not necessarily only about talking to *Iran*. Being able to say "We've made good-faith efforts to discuss issues and conflicts with them; they're being unreasonable" to others, to gain their support/goodwill/willingness to think of the US as other than power-mad imperialists, is difficult when we haven't made such good-faith efforts.
(no subject)
Even if the Iran government doesn't do it directly, we can hardly trust them to keep the bomb out of the hands of the fanatics among their people.
"reasonable" manipulation of popular emotions, perhaps, but unreasonable to most of the west that value life over death in any instance.
Kim is an idiot, by your very justifications. His problem is in seeing "the bomb" as the means to cooperation rather than economics and offering incentives for foreign companies to build factories to compete with China and South Korea. If foreign companies come in to build factories, they'll pay to clean up the agriculture they've so abused for the last 2 decades. He ignores the fact that the very "bomb" he wants creates the very instability in the region that keeps companies from offering to move in and help him. He thinks that governments are more important than corporations in providing economic support, and that is utterly wrong and ignorant.
As for the Russians and the Chinese? Well, someone more influential than Bush (it can't be that hard to find someone) needs to tell them to get those countries in their "sphere" to clean up their acts. Really, China needs to be the victim of terrorism one of these days so they'll wake up and actually do something about their so-called "allies" out there.
(no subject)
Terrorism works on US because a) US is run by morons and b) US general population hasn't had to come to terms with dead innocents since 1861 and thus has no sense of proportion. It wouldn't work in China, and it doesn't work in Russia.
(no subject)
I have to agree with Leo here. Like China would care if Iran did anything to them, whatever "doing anything to them" might entail. Me, I'm still not entirely convinced that Iran is in any substantive way, at a state level, connected with terrorism. Sure, I hear a lot about Iran being a "state sponsor of terrorism," but I hear that in the US media, and apply grains of salt liberally. Name some names. Show some connections. Or, as we used to say in debates, "State your sources." More bluntly, put up or shut up. Otherwise, it's just more of the same Colin-Powell-at-the-UN bullshit. I feel sorry anyone who believed that at the time; they need their gullibility meter reset, and the service fees are a bitch.
I'm also not entirely convinced that Iran is as after Israel as all that, either. It seems to me as though Ahmadinejad's rhetorical excesses (and please see Juan Cole or another actual Farsi speaker for an accurate translation of that "wiped from the map" thing, which is not what he said; the actual phrasing was a metaphor from a classical poem and wasn't even close in meaning) is what some people would call "fronting." He's got an image to maintain, and while he probably doesn't like Israel all that much, I'm not so sure he's dumb or crazy enough to push the Israelis too far. (God knows, when one of the neighbours does something dumb and provocative like that, I can hear the sound of millions of Israeli eyes rolling and muttering "Oi, ma pitom!" or the Hebrew variant on "Bitch, please!" -- and I'm in Canada.) All this latest anti-Semitic stuff Iran has been doing reads to me like a bid for credibility with the other Islamic states in the region -- keep in mind, they're Arab, Iran is not.
I think that's basically what North Korea has been doing, too. As soon as that stupid bastard (good frickin' riddance to bad rubbish) Frum put the "Axis of Evil" thing in Bush's mouth, Kim got all nervous, and not without reason -- he knows that the US' favourite pastime in international relations is replacing people like him with "Christian heroin warlords most friendly to the West." Funny how that is, you scare someone really badly like that, when he's already in a desperate situation, and he does something stupid (see also Fidel Castro jailing dissidents in the wake of threats from the US and after decades of economic embargo and several US-planned assassination attempts).
The US should absolutely talk to anyone and everyone. They should also quit acting like they own half the world and have a lien on the rest...but like either of those two things are going to happen any time soon...
(no subject)