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posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 05:26am on 2007-09-25

Bruce Cohen: "Humans evolved, and are so constituted at a very basic level, that religion is inevitable for us. We're pattern-recognizers and pattern-creators way back up the evolutionary tree, and religion is just an attempt to look for larger and more all-encompassing patterns."

abi: "I'd say that religion and science are born of the same impulse. To posit a path of human evolution that includes science but not religion is like positing a world where cheese is possible, but not butter."

Comments to Making Light, 2007-09-19

There are 12 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] anniemal.livejournal.com at 10:51am on 2007-09-25
The second analogy leaves out the lactose and casein-intolerant. There will still be some scientists who rise above the fray.
 
posted by [identity profile] smallship1.livejournal.com at 12:21pm on 2007-09-25
Yes indeed. And the common ancestor is magic.
 
posted by [identity profile] blastedheath.livejournal.com at 02:58pm on 2007-09-25
*notes D'Glenn's LJ's name*

Well, animism is certainly alive and well. ;)
 
posted by [identity profile] jmax315.livejournal.com at 03:12pm on 2007-09-25
The second bit of human hard-wiring that contributes to religion is our tendency toward social-network formation. Most (all? not sure about that, but maybe) people try to initially fit any problem/thought process to a social-group model; only if that doesn't work do we (sometimes) try other models. For most people, some variety of theism is simply a more sensible (or maybe comfortable) model of the world than anything else.

I don't _think_ that bit contributes to science (note that I'm talking about science as a belief system, *not* how science-the-activity is done; that's as intertwined with socialization as any other human activity).

Actually, I should be a bit stronger there: I think perhaps a definitively non-social explanation system is the distinguishing factor between science and other attempts to understand the world.
 
posted by [identity profile] metahacker.livejournal.com at 03:28pm on 2007-09-25
In this view, religion is *lazy* science. "I think I've found a pattern...should I test my theory? Nah. I'm pretty sure it works this way."

Hrm. May have to expand elsewhere.
 
posted by [identity profile] scooterbird.livejournal.com at 04:39pm on 2007-09-25
That could be true...but of course, "All hail King Science, which explains all!" is not appreciably more work than just keeping God in the equation.
 
posted by [identity profile] metahacker.livejournal.com at 04:46pm on 2007-09-25
I assume by this you are talking about the religion which calls itself science (that of "everybody knows" and "scientists say X", rather than the actual science of "experiments demonstrate Y and Z, which we use as evidence for X").
 
posted by [identity profile] scooterbird.livejournal.com at 04:57pm on 2007-09-25
Possibly. I would assume in return you are referring to religious science ("I have a book which says everything happened this way") rather than actual religion ("I am attempting to obtain meaning in my life and in the universe through esoteric and spiritual means")?
 
posted by [identity profile] kolraashgadol.livejournal.com at 07:58pm on 2007-09-25
It's important to understand that science and religion are not asking the same questions. Science asks, "How?" Or "How do I know that x?" (an epistemological study). "How did the universe come into being?" for example. At its base is a particular kind of philosophical question, and for its answers one must rely exclusively on empirical data. Scientists, like everyone else, sometimes are sloppy, or rely on data that is without knowing it (A great explanation of this is found in Carol Tavris' _The Mismeasure of Woman_ in which she tears to shreds the underlying assumptions of the inexhaustible numbers of studies that keep trying to prove that men and women are *really different*) When science is bad, it's not easily differentiable from religion. When it's good, it is.

Religion (some, anyway) asks the question "why" - as a teleological question, generally, but not exclusively (that is, "Why should I behave in a certain way?" rather than "Why is the sky blue," which is just a poorly stated empirical question)

Where it gets confusing is in the territory of the mind. Science may ask a question such as "what purpose does an ethical code serve," and the answer will be very different from that answer when asked as a religious question.
Thisis the very struggle of theological positivists of the 20s and after, who simply ruled that religious questions were unanswerable by scientific means as an attempt to try to get science and religion from arguing over which territory belonged to whom. Their point was not that science was true and religion wasn't but simply that science can't answer religious questions well. They wanted to take certain questions out of the realm of science.
And well they should, as well as the reverse. Religion shouldn't be trying to answer scientific question either. In science there should be no point at which someone says, "well, that's it then, we can't ask about what happens before that." The truth is though, that's true in religion as well.
SImply positing God isn't ever the final question (at least it's not in my religion, which, I grant, is behavior focused, not belief focused). It's when you try to mush the two together that you get a holy mess with people trying to get other people to stop asking questions.
 
posted by [identity profile] realinterrobang.livejournal.com at 04:21am on 2007-09-26
The problem with the "separate magisteria" argument is that there's still no evidence for anything supernatural. If people would use the term "religion" the way you're using it, with much the same meaning as the term "culture," it would work a lot better.

It's funny how being pretty much an absolute materialist makes a lot of the big philosophical questions either moot or essentially meaningless. That works fine for me, maybe not so much for other people, and I think that in itself is a huge sticking point.
 
posted by (anonymous) at 03:29pm on 2007-09-26
Well, there's still lots of them that I would think ought to trouble a materialist, for example: what's the difference between murder and killing - if there is one. What is the basis of the prohibition on either or both? One of the problems with the field of ethics is that most of the bases for ethical theory are right weak. AFAIK, most of the atheists I know are universalists of some sort, but that doesn't always work...
Of course, the same could be said for religion, if you're a materialist.
:)
 
posted by [identity profile] dptwisted.livejournal.com at 09:31pm on 2007-09-26
That's easy. Murder = unjustified killing. Of course, "justified" is subjective; except for psycho/sociopaths, every murder is justified by the murderer.

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