Transcription-Preference Survey [Δαφνη Ευτυχια Αρθουρος]

For the musicians reading my journal (or just randomly dropping in), a question: Which of these two ways of transcribing "Como poden per sas culpas" do you find easier to read (less confusing, less distracting, more obvious)?

Two versions of a 13th Century tune, one with a dual time signature (6/8, 3/4) at the start, the otherwith an explicit time signature change at the start ofeach measure and courtesy time signatures at the endsof lines

Which would you rather sight-read from, cold? Is it the same one you'd rather have on your stand for reminders after already having rehearsed the piece?

(Or would you write it as being in 12/8?)

I didn't know abcm2ps would do that double time-signature thing in the first version of the tune until I needed it for this, and I tried the most obvious syntax, and it just worked. Maybe I should read the help files more carefully. Then again, as long as it just does the right thing when I guess, R'ingTFM seems kinda less-urgent than some other things ...

[Edit at 2009-10-06 16:15, to add:] I experimented a little with abcm2ps and found that it considers "M:6/8(3/4)" a valid time signature, producing this, which at least avoids being mistaken for either 36/48 or 63/84, though it does nothing to address the complaint about finding oneself doing the math on each measure.

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15 1	16 1	17 1	18 1	19 1	20 1	21 1
22 1	23 1	24	25	26	27	28
29	30	31

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The second version seems to be easier to play, even if I'm taking it fast enough that I'm not consciously seeing the alternating time signatures.

That's a neat tune-- I don't think I've played it before.

Does the alternating 3/4 and 6/8 rhythm have a name?

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I'm pretty sure the meter alternation has a name, and that I've run across the name, but I cannot recall it even if I'm right. Either that, or this piece is really unusual for the period and I'm only imagining that the technique has a name because I've been stuffing my head full of terms and concepts like "imperfect tempus" and "perfect prolation" for the past few weeks.

I want to describe this as alternating between tempus imperfectum, prolatio major and tempus perfectum, prolatio minor, but I'm not sure whether I'm applying the right century's mensural terminology. I'm getting the concepts but the timeline is all a jumble in my head. BTW, the original notation is online, but I'm having trouble tracking down exactly which of a few similar-looking notations it's in, and the scan is kind of blurry.

When I was typing the tune in, I didn't recognize the title ... but then when I played it I realized I'd heard it before on some CD. It's a really bouncy little tune, even at a singable speed, isn't it? It's also my current earworm.

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Still don't know whether it has a name, but

fidhle pointed out that it shows up in Spanish music, and in "America" from West Side Story. So if it does have a name, it's probably something in Spanish.

The collection the tune is from is apparently of Castilian origin, written in Galician-Portugese.

maugorn gives it a name, below. Hemiola. Wikipedia says he's technically wrong even though a lot of other people make the same mistake. Two different editions of Webster's say he's right. I think

maugorn and Webster are right.

Now to go try to understand more clearly when to say 'hemiola' and when to say 'sesquialtera' ... (it's being one of those educational days).

maugorn's right, and you are mistaken that Wikipedia says otherwise. Wikipedia: "Later, from around the 15th century, the word came to mean the use of three breves in a bar when the prevailing metrical scheme had two dotted breves in each bar."

When I'm being really persnicketty, I differentiate between implicit and explicit hemiolas, the latter being where there is a second line (or more lines!) of music keeping the predominant rhythm in explicit counterpoint with the one in the hemiola, the former being as per "Como Poden".

Five bucks says that the original source notates those measures explicitly as hemiolas, i.e. in red ink where the measure is in three.

Whoops. Read in haste right past the bit about shift in meaning.

I couldn't find the tune in the web-accessible scans of the 'T' manuscript.
In the scans of the 'E' manuscript all the notes are black ... but the illuminated letters look kinda funny, so I'm guessing that these are black and white scans of more colourful pages. I'd be very interested in seeing better images.

Of the 2, definitely the 2nd. Otherwise my brain would be doing the math *every bloody measure* to check if I'm in duple or triple meter.

But I'd rather just put it in 12/8 & be done with it. Or maybe in 6/4 & use a lot of triplets, but that could get really ugly.

Being distracted by all the time signatures vs. being distracted by mentally doing the math was the biggest aspect of what I was wondering about. Two votes so far for the way the editor of the book I copied it from had done it.

In 12/8, how would you feel about dotted barlines between the duple and triple halves of each measure? Make the 12 more manageable, or just be one more distraction?

What she said.

Would writing it out explicitly as hemiolas be better or worse than the alternating time signatures?

Hrm. I would be terribly distracted by the time signatures with every measure.

I use the flags on the eighth notes to tell me whether I'm in 3/4 or 6/8...

I hadn't thought consciously about the clue in the flags, but yeah, the information is there ...

+1

Though since this is a song, the flags don't work as well as they would for an instrumental piece.

I looked over it very quickly, but why aren't you doing it in 6/8 throughout? The implied 3/4 measures have always read as syncopated measures to me anyway...

I did it this way because the book I copied it from had it with alternating time signatures. Like you,

fidhle said just writing it as 6/8 throughout and leaving it to the performer to notice where the accents are falling might be least confusing. (And he pointed out that the dual time signature looked like 36/48 instead of the intended 3/4 6/8.)

He also gave me a clue to where I'd seen that double time signature before. He asked whether the tune is Spanish and pointed out that this pattern shows up in other Spanish music, then hummed a bit of "America" from West Side Story. When I looked it up, I saw that "America" also bears a time signature like this (but the other way 'round: 6/8 3/4), so that's likely where I'd seen this notation.

The term "Hemiola"(sp) comes into my head.

As fidhle pointed out, it's in alot of spanish music, figures prominently in "America" from WSS. I remember learning this technique (and the term that I think applies) working on _Man Of La Mancha_ for the song "It's All The Same".

That's the word that popped into my head too, but I dismissed it after seeing that Wikipedia said it's technically not hemiola even though a lot of other people make the same 'mistake' ...

But Merriam Webster agrees with you -- I looked farther than Wikipedia after reading your comment. I'm going with you and Webster over Wikipedia on this one.

There is, by modern early music professional editorial standards, a Right Answer to your question: 6/4. Or 6/2 if you prefer.

No time changes; if there was an indication that a group of notes were syncopated in the original, put an appropriate bracket over them. And it's a song, so only beam things on the same syllable.

aaaaaaaaaaaa!

i'm going to go with "not having to do the math" second version.

in the end i might like the 3/2 version better, but right now i find that version a visual poke in the eye.

Gut reaction is the first. I'm not sure why, something about the groupings of the triplets. The time-sigs do add width that makes my eye work more too.

Half the songs in Man Of La Mancha (which I played oboe/english horn for) were in 6/8-3/4, so I'm used to doing the mental grouping. It's one of those things where it is easier to do than to watch yourself doing.

No votes for 3/4 all the way through?

If you write it quarter-notes in 3/2 time signature, some of the measures will have accents on beats 1 and 4, and alternate measures will have accents on 1, 3, and 5. No need to change time signatures. Same rhythm as the song. "America" from "West Side Story."

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Transcription-Preference Survey

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