eftychia: Me in kilt and poofy shirt, facing away, playing acoustic guitar behind head (Default)
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posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 04:32pm on 2003-10-23

I am fucking annoyed.

Somone forwarded a message ostensibly containing something cute to a mailing list. The forwarded message was in fugly HTML that pretty completely obscured the allegedly cute bit, so I wrote back pointing that out and asking whether his MUA was so broken that he had no way of knowing it was HTML before forwarding it. The answer was "yes, it's that broken", followed a few minutes later by, "Oh, there is a way to tell, but it's really not obvious". In between those two messages, I figured I'd have a peek myself. The MUA in question is Pine.

In the version of Pine I've got, an HTML-only message does not show any indication -- when reading, replying, or forwarding -- that it's in HTML. This is severely broken, because it makes it so difficult for users to Do The Right Thing, but that's not what I'm screaming about.

When I finished, my mail was fucking gone. Oh, I did eventually find it in $HOME/mbox, appended to a pile of already-dealt-with stuff that's supposed to be in $HOME/mbox, but dammit, I did not ask Pine to actually save any changes to my mailbox! The other MUAs I use can be exited with or without saving changes; one makes this obvious by which command one uses to exit, the other prompts on exit, asking whether to move read messages to an "already read" folder or not, and whether to delete messages marked for deletion or not.

Now I've got to go figure out where stuff-supposed-to-be-in-mbox leaves off and stick the rest back into /var/spool/mail/dglenn, and in the meantime I've lost status information. Usually I've got four categories of messages:

  1. Marked "New" in my system mailbox: recent, since the last time I really Dealt With My Mail, still "New" to remind me to go through them again Soon.
  2. Marked "Unread" in my system mailbox: messages still on my urgent "to do" list.
  3. Marked "read" in my system mailbox: not urgent, but I'm not finished with them either -- I might want to file the information someplace other than my mail archive, or extract quotable bits, or file addresses in my .mailrc.
  4. In $HOME/mbox: read, responded to, dealt with, ready to archive.
Depending on what I find when I go edit mbox, at least some of that status information will be lost. All because I tried seeing what a particular MUA looks like.

This is not only wrong, this is unconscionably wrong. Always leave the user a way to get out without having made any goddamned changes!

I knew Pine had a broken user interface when I started, but I thought it was just the fact that it had annoying-as-sin menus and played the "make it easy to learn by making it annoying or impossible to do anything but the obvious" game, but I didn't expect "you can't even open this program without making changes to your mail file". Whoever wrote Pine owes me a couple hours wages for my time putting this right again. *grumble*

Stay away from Pine, folks. Laugh at my own choice of MUA (/bin/mail under Linux, /usr/bin/mailx under SunOS) if you must, but use Elm or Mutt or some Windows or Mac MUA, not Pine. Pine is eeevil. And I am quite angry.

All because I tried to figure out how to tell someone not to accidentally send HTML messages to a mailing list where HTML isn't apropriate. "No good deed," and all that.

There are 9 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] wispfox.livejournal.com at 01:59pm on 2003-10-23
Very odd...

I *use* pine, and have never had it make changes for me without asking (unless I went into the settings area and *told* it to do so).

Sorry to hear that it was evil to you!
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:36pm on 2003-10-23
So there's apparently something odd in my configuration (which AFAIK is the default-as-installed configuration for my Linux distro), but I'm still surprised that "make it impossible to exit without making big changes" is possible to configure.

Somewhat relieved to hear it doesn't screw everyone up this way, but still annoyed that it did it to me.
cellio: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] cellio at 02:02pm on 2003-10-23
Pine provides a setting (in .pinerc) for whether to prompt before purging deleted messages on exit. I thought this was on by default. I use pine and stuff never moves out of my inbox unless I told it to do that. Just to be clear, by inbox I mean /var/mail/$USER, not $HOME/inbox.

I do, however, lose the "new" flag on messages I've read, and there doesn't seem to be a way to reverse that. This is sometimes annoying. It would be even more annoying if I switched between multiple mail clients, of course.

You can (through .pinerc) set arbitrary headers to be added to your outgoing mail. I wonder what would happen if you used that to force a content-type of text/plain. As far as I know all my outgoing mail is plain anyway, but I'll pay more attention the next time I forward something.

There is also an option in .pinerc called "mimetype-search-path", which points to a file that (I gather) specifies MIME types and how to handle them. I've never looked into this, but I'm guessing it would be possible to override pine's handling of HTML via this mechanism. It would be better if it were built in, of course, because HTML-formatted email is evil.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:33pm on 2003-10-23
Maybe that option is on by default in some other versions -- I was just running whatever came with Mandrake 6.mumble (which is probably the same as shipped with similarly-numbered versions of Red Hat).

I'll let someone Pine doesn't act evil towards (like maybe someone who actually uses it) do the experiments with forcing the MIME-type. But I'm willing to be a test recipient of email and describe how it arrives.

Even if it hadn't moved all my mail out of /var/spool/mail/dglenn, losing the "New" flag would've been annoying. Less scary, but annoying. I don't understand why there isn't an "exit without making any changes on disk" option.

But as long as I'm griping about MUAs, I wish I knew why the Linux version(s) of /bin/mail don't honor the "editheaders" variable that worked on Xenix 3.x, various flavours of BSD, SunOS, and most other Unices I've used. And neither the Linux version nor the most recent couple of SunOS versions honor "noautombox", which I used to find rather convenient. (Now I have to remember to type "ho *" before I quit-with-changes.) So even my preferred MUA isn't perfect; it just fails to be evil.

Emacs doesn't like me either, but at least it's not sneaky about it.
 
posted by [identity profile] bruhinb.livejournal.com at 02:31pm on 2003-10-23
I might as well admit it was my email that triggered all this. I'm suspecting that this problem involves a relatively new release of pine. I've been using pine off and on for eight years or so, and never encountered any difficulty recognizing HTML mails before.

I also never had problems with pine moving my mails around. Of course, I use pine exclusively when I'm reading my mail under unix. (If I've never tried another mailer, I'd be very unlikely to notice the kinds of things you're talking about.)

Anyway, sorry this happened to you, Glenn.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:25pm on 2003-10-23
I left your name out of it because the thing I was really bitching about in that entry was the severe brokenness of [my version of] Pine, not your message that started the whole chain of events.

I'm guessing that different versions shipped with different defaults in the .pinerc that gets created when it's first executed.
 
posted by [identity profile] figmo.livejournal.com at 09:41pm on 2003-10-23
You're preaching to the choir on this one.

I avoid pine like the bubonic plague. My ex-husband is on the receiving end of "bug-pine", which is enough for me to stay far away.
siderea: (Default)

nmh

posted by [personal profile] siderea at 09:56pm on 2003-10-23
Switch to nmh, dude! All the cool kids are doing it. You know you want to. User interfaces are for whimps. ;) N
 
posted by [identity profile] badgerthorazine.livejournal.com at 06:07am on 2003-10-24
Heh! Yet another good reason for me to avoid Pine.
I have to admit, if I get an account back at my college like I plan to, I'm gonna have to install elm myself, which should be....erm...an adventure. *wry grin* Pine has been the default mailer at Clark for....a long time now. And has been ignored by me...for a long time now.

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