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posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 12:19pm on 2004-02-14

(About 3/4 of a day behind on my friends list, so maybe somebody else has said this by now, but...)

More thoughts about same-sex marriage, civil unions, religious objections, and so forth, led down this path: (Many of you will have heard me say most of this background before, so you can skip down to the section labelled "My Suggestion")

A large part of the problem folks have is with the word "marriage", especially since it's a religiously loaded term. I've heard people present arguments against recognition of same-sex unions on religious grounds, saying that marriage is a religious institution, and I've heard other people saying that marriage is a civil contract, implying (but usually not stating) that religion has nothing to do with it. The thing is, as I've pointed out before, neither of those is accurate.

There are two things we call by the name "marriage": religious marriage, which very much is a church-thing, and civil marriage, which is a state-thing, except that it often happens at the same time as the church one. (By "happens" I mean "is established". The wedding happens on a day, the marriage happens for (one hopes) a very long time.) The fact that a legal wedding occurs on the same day as, and as part of, a church wedding, and that in most places clergy can perform legal weddings, makes it difficult for many people to separate the two ideas that share a noun.

(But two things demonstrate that they are different. First, the fact that clergy are not required for a legal wedding -- a justice of the peace can create a legally binding marriage -- and second, that at least in some states the blessing of clergy is not sufficient to create a legal marriage -- a marriage license has to have been granted first. When I've married people, my performing the ceremony makes them married in all the ways important to them personally and to their community, but it's not a legal marriage until I sign the license that the state issued. In fact, I had to marry one couple twice because they'd screwed up and not gotten the license in time, so they celebrate their anniversary on the day I performed the ceremony, but as far as the state is concerned they didn't get married until a week or so later when I signed the license. Clearly two things took place, not one. And one of those was religious and the other legal.)

Because civil marriage does exist and is really the important thing in a discussion on rights (a church can decide for itself who it will or will not marry; the state must not discriminate absent a damned good reason, and all the legal issues are tied to the civil aspect), I've maintained for some time that there are two fair and just paths the State can take: either extend civil marriage equally, without gender-discrimination; or get the heck out of the marriage business altogether, leave "marriage" to the churches, and make every couple who wants the benefits and protections currently afforded by civil marriage do it the hard way with ordinary legal contracts. But a new spin on both of these ideas has come to mind.

"Civil unions" were put forth as a compromise, an attempt in some places to give same-sex couples some, but not all, of the benefits of marriage. An attempt in other places to give all of the benefits on a local level without presuming to have any effect on larger jurisdictions. And an attempt in a few places to create a parallel institution to marriage but without the "hot button" name. The problems are that the first does not address the intrinsic unfairness except halfheartedly, the second doesn't solve the problem beyond "partners of city employees can get health insurance" (one corner of the problem), and the third usually involves having hets and gays play by slightly different rules (creating a new inequality) and still falls prey to the problems of the second because other jurisdictions (including the Feds) will duck because the name isn't "marriage". As that judge in Massachussetts pointed out, separate is seldom if ever equal.

My Suggestion

So how about this: We change the name of civil marriage -- all civil marriage -- to "civil union" so that people can remember the difference between the legal thing and the religious thing?

We extend civil unions to same-sex and opposite-sex couples equally, and we transfer all of the current benefits and side effects and legal status of marriage to this same-institution-under-a-new-name, thus preserving the construct so many people already rely on while ending the discrimination that currently denies those benefits to same-sex couples, and we have the state ignore anything called "marriage", leaving that word to the church institutions. Thus the religious objections to ending the discrimination go away, without creating a "separate and trying to be nearly equal but failing" situation. The separation of Church and State becomes clearer, ending the confusion caused by two distinct institutions that share a name and an anniversary.

Admittedly it'd probably be simpler just to end the discrimination while retaining the name "marriage", as seems to be the direction we're headed gradually and with much wringing of hands and ugly words, but I wonder whether this way might be quicker, bringing the two sides closer to agreement, speeding up the process and sidestepping much of the ugliness and the period of confusion as different states recognize different things ...

... and maybe even make it so neither side has to feel it has "lost". Gays and lesbians get their rights and equal protection under the law, and religious conservatives now better able to see the distinction between the religious and legal institutions get to keep "marriage" as a religious term and preserve the sanctity of that holy institution as they see fit, without feeling that they "lost the battle of changing the definition". Without a "loser" side, perhaps we can avoid having a pool of deeply resentful population attempting to push the pendulum back the other way, or feeling oppressed.

Looking further ahead

Of course, since some churches will perform same-sex marriages (in fact some already do, it's just that those unions aren't recognized by the State), the term "marriage" will eventually come to refer equally to same-sex and opposite-sex couples, but it'll be a natural social and linguistic evolution rather than a decided-by-law sudden change. Two hundred years from now the results will be the same. The difference I see with my proposal concerns only the next fifty years.

So do I have something (even partially) here, or does all of this mean I got up to early and should go back to bed?

There are 15 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] juuro.livejournal.com at 09:56am on 2004-02-14
In Finland, "everything but name" solution was taken. There is marriage, that can be enacted by a justice of peace or an accredited church. Then there is "registered partnership", of which the law and acts explicitly state "conveys all the rights, benefits, and obligations, that are enacted for marriage elsewhere."

I understand there is opposition to the "everything but name" approach. Many American LTGB activists refuse to count Finland in their lists of gay marriage countries.
 

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posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 11:47am on 2004-02-14
Are both options available to both same-sex and opposite-sex couples, or are they two separate tracks by orientation? "Civil union" meaning "same-sex version of marriage is that whole "separate but equal is rarely actually equal" thing (at least it never seems to work here). That's why I suggested renaming het marriages "civil unions" as well, so that everyone's using the same rules and the same name.

If Finland allows both options to everyone, then I'm not sure why folks don't count it.
 
posted by [identity profile] juuro.livejournal.com at 08:56pm on 2004-02-14
That's just the point. "Marriage" is available for het couples only, enacted either by secular or accredited religious authority. "Registered partnership" is available for same-gender couples, and is currently enacted only by the secular authority. Some churches, and individual clerics of others, are willing to "bless the union" of same-sex couples.

The marriage as enacted by secular authorities still is commonly known as "civil marriage", although the law and acts do not make this distinction any more.

I would personally have preferred your model. Same rules to everyone, separation of religious and legal institutions.
 
posted by [identity profile] silmaril.livejournal.com at 10:10am on 2004-02-14
You do have something, and your suggestion is sensible. Except where it won't work, because of the way the language is interwoven with the thought patterns of people.

Note that I'm strictly playing devil's advocate here. I support your position.

"Children born inside a civil union"=="Children born inside a marriage?"

"Sex within a civil union"=="pre-marital sex?"

the distinction between the religious and legal institutions get to keep "marriage" as a religious term and preserve the sanctity of that holy institution as they see fit, ---> My marriage is holier than your civil union?

There won't be any distinction in law, which is what the GLBT community rightly wants, but none of the psychological problems will go away.

I'd like to present in passing that my parents, according to the definition of "marriage" having only a religious context, are not married and they've never been married. They only have a civil union. Yet in Turkey that's called a "marriage", and if anything, the distinction is made for a religious wedding ceremony. (Here it seems to be the opposite, the distinction is made for a civil union.) Ministers cannot perform legal weddings in Turkey; there's no "ordained minister" institution, you have</> to go to a justice of peace or the assigned official of the local government. What you then (or immediately before) do and say and promise to in a room with a minister and two witnesses is only your business.
 

Re:

posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 11:42am on 2004-02-14
Here a justice-of-the-peace wedding still results in something everybody simply calls a marriage, but I do get the impression that folks who got married only civilly are more likely to mention that as a footnote to conversations, suggesting that the default is to assume religious marriage ... I wonder how accurate that impression is.


Also, I was reading recently about some country (I forget which ... France maybe??) where you're not allowed to have a religious marriage ceremony without first having gotten civilly married. (Not that I would suggest such State interference in religious rites here, but just as something your description brought to mind.)
 

Re:

posted by [identity profile] juliansinger.livejournal.com at 01:54pm on 2004-02-14
Yeah. my mom remembers wedding parties stopping at the mayor's office, then going to church.

(Or something like that. But it was France!)
 
posted by [identity profile] noblessa.livejournal.com at 10:22am on 2004-02-14
I think "marriage" should be purely religious.

I know several other people who agree with us, too.

Unfortunately, I can see the problems that other people (in the above comments) have mentioned as being valid, and I don't think they'll see it.

BTW, for a funny... the fact that I share the POV comes from being technically Catholic. Legally, I'm not married, religiously, I still am. It just amuses me that such a "typically conservative/anti-gay" POV will set legal precedent for the sort of separation you describe.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 11:38am on 2004-02-14
Doh! I completely forgot about the example of divirced Catholics.
siderea: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] siderea at 11:15am on 2004-02-14
The problem I see with your solution is that it "solves" the problem by attempting to constrain jurisdictions, which per ipse reduces the rights and privileges attendant upon "marriage".

To wit, if a couple gets "married", jump in their car for their honeymoon, cross the state border, get in a terrible car accident leaving one of them unconscious, there is no question that whatever hospital they wind up in will allow the other spouse to visit the unconscious one and make care choices for them.

But if a couple gets a "civil union", jump in their car for their honeymoon, cross the state border, get in a terrible car accident leaving one of them unconscious, the hospital in that other state in which they wind up may elect not to consider the conscious spouse the "next of kin", indeed may not consider that spouse "kin" at all, and even refuse visitation rights.

There is no "solution" which involves limiting the jurisdiction of the change which doesn't result in less benefits for the "civil union" than the "marriage", precisely because marriages aren't limited in jurisdiction.
 

Re:

posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 11:33am on 2004-02-14
For my proposal to work, it would have to be nationwide all at once.

Uh, which probably means federal ... a federal intrusion into what has been a states issue (not like DOMA isn't a similar intrusion) ... could the feds mandate a nomenclature change (and antidiscrimination) without otherwise impinging on states' making their own decisions about age requirements, tests, etc.?
 

Re:

posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 11:36am on 2004-02-14
Also, what you wrote about a couple getting married and driving across state lines still only applies if they got the marriage license -- i.e. if they have a civil marriage; that aspect wouldn't change.
 
posted by [identity profile] syntonic-comma.livejournal.com at 02:28pm on 2004-02-14
A similar proposal from [livejournal.com profile] spottycat: Show Your Support:
Change Marriage to read as Civil Union, and have Marriage fall under laws for Civil Union, being what marriage still is. Civil Union is obviously not just a term for gay marriage in this scenario.
 
posted by [identity profile] butterfluff.livejournal.com at 02:34pm on 2004-02-14
In Virginia, you get married by a Commissioner of Marriages, not a Justice of the Peace. It was always vastly amusing that marriages were "committed."
 
posted by [identity profile] donnad.livejournal.com at 05:23am on 2004-02-15
I think your idea is great but...

It's just words, the big complaint that the rabid anti-same-sex marriage (RASSMP) people have is not so much the marrying of two people of the same sex, but that they are *together* in the first place. RASSMP look at homosexuality as an abomination, it's not *normal*, it's not *like everyone else*, it's *different* and *I don't agree with it* therefore it's wrong. Look at some of the signs the RASSMP had their kids holding at the Mass. State house last week. Sad...

Changing the words isn't going to change these peoples opinions of homosexuals. They are still going to be close-minded and anti-gay and think that anything different and unlike themselves is not normal.
 
posted by [identity profile] blumindy.livejournal.com at 12:07pm on 2004-02-16
ITA with this assessment of this group of people. I've been in this same argument with individuals from this group that it's ridiculous. They start by asking if I'm gay. What does that have to do with anything? I believe in equality and equal rights. Period. Regardless of whether or not I'm in the group experiencing the discrimination.
I counter by asking WHY they find homosexuality to be an abomination. I got enough replies about no other animals engaging in such behavior that I used to carry around clippings of several studies of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom. (Do we think these animals are choosing an alternative lifestyle? Did the "bad" older gay monkeys, etc, just need to recruit fresh "meat?")
They either deny the science or launch into a Bible-based diatribe. I let them go on and on until they run out of steam and then ask why they think the early Christians so reviled homosexuality. I have yet, after having this argument for 20 years, to get a single response which has any historical understanding or accuracy in it.
So, the RASSMP feel that they have God on their side and it is true that passing laws granting equal rights will never, ever dent the bigotry and hatred which Christianity is promulgating against homosexuals.

I can hardly wait for "The Passion of the Christ" to open in a few days.
(Heading for the local bomb-shelter while watching the line at the theatre.)

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