eftychia: Me in kilt and poofy shirt, facing away, playing acoustic guitar behind head (Default)
Add MemoryShare This Entry
posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 06:50pm on 2004-02-23

#blink# #blink# Uh ... I've given myself quite a headache trying to do something that the web is probably not quite the right tool for yet.

I was trying to look up some (ancient) Greek vocabulary and declensions. (Stuff I knew once upon a time.)

I'd feel much more certain of what I was seeing if I could be sure of the spellings. But most of what I found was transliterated. Figuring out which Roman character to use in place of a Greek one is easy. Being sure which Greek character someone else substituted a Roman character for ... makes me nervous and uncertain when it comes to some of the vowels. Especially when an ending doesn't look quite right: is it transliterated funny, or is it a third declension noun (all of which look funny anyhow)? My dictionary already gives the standard English transliterations; I specifically wanted to see them in Greek.

And there are other problems: How do I Google for the Greek spelling of a Greek word? Some sites use the &element; tags to spell things out while others use Unicode and/or a Greek font, and some of those are clearly rendering incorrectly in my browser while others look sane. I found a chart of third declension endings, but I don't trust it because several letters are clearly wrong.

Along the way I tripped over a Greek joke-of-the-day archive. I made the mistake of peering at a few of the archived messages to see whether I could read them. Unsurprisingly, I couldn't, but I learned two new things: 1) looking at whole sentences in transliterated Greek (Greek words spelled in the Roman alphabet) really hurts my brain -- I completely fail to recognize words; it looks like line noise or Perl or something, and if I slow waaaaay down and figure it out word by word, it still looks All Wrong. 2) Reading italicized Greek makes my eyes hurt; I can't tell upsilon from nu at the default size, and I keep thinking I see characters that aren't there -- telling Opera to zoom to 150% makes it legible again (I still can't translate it, but it looks as though I ought to be able to read it, and I can pronounce it). If the letters aren't leaning over like that, I can read them smaller. 3) running across an English word in the middle of a Greek sentence is disturbing only after I realize that I've just pronounced an English word without having noticed when I switched alphabets and switched back again. But seeing transliterated Greek in the next paragraph breaks my brain again. "[...] ο οποις ειχε στειλει αν θυμαστε ενα quiz στην παρουσα λιστα [...]"

(Okay, none of this is as bad as the time I got brain-lock staring at one of Lee Moyer's paintings because I couldn't read an inscription over a doorway. I started reading it in Roman letters, got to a Pi, switched to Greek, backed up, read it again, got past the Pi and ran into an 'R', switched to Roman, backed up, reinterpreted the Rho in between as a 'P', kept backing up, hit the Pi, switched to Greek, moved forward, hit the 'P' and mentally changed it to a Rho again, ran into the 'R', and was stuck in an infinite loop with a growing feeling of distress for several minutes before I finally turned to Lee and asked him what the Hell it said. When he told me, I realized that the Pi was a pair of capital 'T's joined together. I snarled at him to Never Do That Again. I think he thought it was funny. I had just spent several minutes not being able to read. <<shudder>> I was about ready to cry.)

I forwarded the URL of the joke archive site to my mother and one of my cousins. I just hope that the jokes don't turn out to be offensive and/or stupid.

There are a few familiar words that don't hurt when I see them transliterated -- I guess frequent exposure helps: "anthropos", "psyche", "logos", "theos". And recognizing Greek roots in English words has never bothered me (though if I happen to notice a compound that's half Greek and half Latin I'll twitch briefly; fortunately I often fail to notice them). But clicking on a link where I expect to get Greek text, and getting lines of Roman letters trying to spell out Greek words instead, makes my eyes and my brain hurt. Not as badly as trying to make sense of those tables of declensions that mixed uppercase and lowercase randomly and seemed to have extra letters inserted in the middle, but badly enough.

BTW, for a completely unrelated pursuit, can anyone point me in the direction of a web-accessible New Testament in Greek? My paper copy (two columns; ancient Greek on one side and modern Greek on the other -- I can even understand a few verses here and there) is buried in a box in the basement along with way too many other books I'd like to have fingertip access to again someday.

There are 17 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] blumindy.livejournal.com at 04:16pm on 2004-02-23
It could all be Hebrew to you! Then what would happen to your brain?
I can't handle cursive Greek or Hebrew AT ALL. It's so ridiculous just trying to puzzle out the ancient Hebrew with NO VOWELS!!! They had plenty of time....why not use vowels?! DVD: not something you use to watch movies...no, that's the name David......or is it? What if there's a word Dovod or Doved or Davod? All still spelled DVD..... Needless to say, I'm not helping Hannah learn her Torah portion. She's doing fine on her own. ll n hr wn (or all on her own, as normal people would spell.....'sigh.')
Can you tell I'm tired? And what would a Hebrew spell-check be like?
 
posted by (anonymous) at 09:59pm on 2004-02-23
I'm learning Hebrew. A friend of mine sent me to what he says is a "really great" online dictionary (Hebrew, English, and Arabic), but I can't use it, as it won't render correctly in either of my browsers.

Making up verb sheets and vocab charts in Word is really difficult, even with a couple of Hebrew fonts, because I have to a) remember the divergent keyboard mapping, which does some weird things, like puts "tzade" mapped to "J" (ok, close your eyes and squint, and it almost makes sense); b) stop touch-typing; and c) remember to hit <- after every letter I type, because I can't set Word to type right-to-left, even if I right-justify everything.

The moral of the story is, I guess, English-speakers have been monopolizing the Internet for a long time, so localization really sucks, especially for languages not in the Roman alphabet, or which have smaller numbers of speakers.

As to the vowels problem, get the "pointed" Hebrew until you learn the vocabulary, I guess. The problem I have is going from Hebrew letters to Roman letters, or vice versa. Looking at an unpointed Hebrew word, especially one where the vowel pronunciation isn't immediately obvious (because, as you know, some of the written vowel letters can make more than one sound), I have trouble figuring out how to transliterate that into English, for whatever reason I might have to do that. For instance, I just got hung up on "forest," ya'ar, yod, ayin, resh. I originally had it transliterated as yair, strictly out of pure iggerance. How am I supposed to know, if I don't know the word, and when no one's been able to explain the rules to me (yet), and there's seemingly no intuitive pattern? Likewise, I have trouble figuring out from transliterated Hebrew (which I can usually read if I know the word) how it should be spelled in Hebrew letters, since there doesn't seem to be a standard Roman-letter transliteration orthography. (Ok, is that "k" actually a "khet," a "kaf," or a "qof"?)

These "multiple letters make multiple sounds" and "can't read the cursive" problems (I'm getting better with the cursive, but still not perfect) make me sympathise with people who are learning English, surely one of the worst languages for zero-phoneme-to-grapheme match and divergent letter forms ever...

For Hebrew worksheets and stuff, pointed (sometimes) and with words written both in book and cursive, I recommend akhlah.com. It's rather Orthodox in outlook (if that might bother you), but the worksheets as worksheets are great for learning the letters and the diacritics. (Hooked on Akhlah worked for me! :) )
 
Thanks for the info. I can handle Orthodox for the website. I agree with the keyboarding. In talking with Hebrew speakers who were bilingual, I came to find several of them who either had 2 machines or who swapped out different keyboards (that's what I would do.)

J = tzade? Okay, I'm squinting!

The whole difficulty with learning English as a second language is one thing that makes me nutty when native speakers can't be bothered to speak it correctly. I ask people all over the world if speakers of other languages do to them what Americans do to English. I've always been told no.
 
As I was writing that entry, I was also wondering whether I would wind up feeling the same way about transliterated Hebrew if I ever learned Hebrew (or at least enough of it to match my small knowledge of Greek) ... and the bidirectional typing issues. (IIRC, there are features in the CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) web specification to handle that, BTW. Dunno that it helps with the typing of it, but there are features for the display.)

As to butchery of one's own language, I've heard of Parisian teens doing some icky stuff to French (but I got the impression that they grow out of it). Part of what we've got in the US is pocket dialects that shift too frequently to track easily and have blurred and overlapping geography. And part of it is just ... cussedness, I suspect. The "can't be bothered" aspect bugs me too. I love this language.
 
I **LOVE** English, too.
The cussedness, as you call it, is exactly my objection in this matter. I'm in the Midwest, land of little-to-no dialect (actually, that's a whole separate issue.) It's all the people who say "I seen him" or "me and him..." etc. , despite having a decent education and, rich or poor, all having had ready access to TV,who drive me nutty with this habit.
Even Jerry Springer speaks with appropriate subject-verb agreement. It's a *choice* to speak the lazy English and by that very fact, the choice to do so rankles me.
 
posted by (anonymous) at 11:06am on 2004-02-26
Nancy Lebovitz here:

Apparently "even Jerry Springer" isn't appropriate. There was a This American Life (NPR radio show) about him, and apparently he was a brilliant progressive politician who ended up with a sleazy tv show for reasons that I can't remember. (This assumes that the segment about his was factual--"This American Life" doesn't always label fiction and non-fiction.
 
posted by [identity profile] blumindy.livejournal.com at 03:53pm on 2004-02-26
I didn't mean Jerry's personal linguistic choices were gramatically incorrect at all. He's clearly intelligent; he's politically savvy and knows how to appeal to the large, lowest-common-denominator segment of the population. I was more referring to his audience and their verbal skills (or lack thereof.) I should have stated that more clearly :-)
 
posted by (anonymous) at 08:42pm on 2004-02-25
This is Interrobang posting, and I posted the last entry on Hebrew, too. Glenn would know, because Glenn knows I'm learning Hebrew, but you don't know me. Anyway...

I'm given to understand that speakers of other languages do speak in ways analogous to "lazy English." Quebec French is rife with examples -- many perfectly grammatical Quebecois(e) expressions are scarily incorrect in Parisian French. My Parisian French friend has also been teaching me a lot of their French slang. He says my syntax is funny, and to him it probably is. Spanish also allows for a great deal of laziness in speech -- don't want to put pronouns? Don't have to! The same with Japanese. Also, an increasing proportion of Japanese slang/vernacular words are corrupted loanwords from English, like "wapuro" for "word processor," or "pokkekon" for "pocket computer" (PDA). There are also entire verb conjugations in Japanese which are considered slangy and "impolite" -- a polite speaker would say, for instance, "Nani desu ka?" [What is it?] but people speaking in a less formal or polite (or more masculine) way would say, "Nan da?" Listening to half an hour of subtitled anime will give one an excellent feel for ungrammatical Japanese as spoken by native speakers, even if one's competency in the language is severely limited. As far as Hebrew goes, I've read that analogues for even ungrammatical English contractions (such as "ain't") exist in vernacular Hebrew (see Lewis Glinert on that one), and my Israeli friend Gauche is busily teaching me some, er, less formal Hebrew expressions so, should I ever get to visit my tree, I don't sound like a total rube. (For instance, when I said, "Ma shlomech?" he said "Say 'Ma nishma?'! It sounds better!")

That about puts me out of languages upon which I can opine from first-hand experience.

I still maintain that no native English speaker has the right to complain too loudly about other languages' orthographies, though. :)
 
Hi Interrobang

Thanks for the intro. Good to know you. I'd happily have any friend of Glenn's be a friend of mine.

I've mostly discussed this grammar issue with people who are dealing with doing business overseas, so I think that did slant the perspective in the conversation.
I wasn't really talking about slang per se. I had a long talk with a man who has been working all over Asia and in some European countries for the past 6-8 years. My question wasn't dialect or slang-related. I know both of those exist. I'm not really sure whether I consider saying "I seen him." to be slang. I don't think so. When my 8th graders as "'Sup?" that's slang. They are all interacting within a group that is using the slang intentionally, as part of the group's culture, if you will. But when my fairly well-educated former neighbor comes over to talk, she *knows* I can't stand that whole "I seen him" way she talks and I know she knows better. But she still does it. I have a classmate who is student teaching **right now** and says things like "me and him" all the time. Would you consider that slang?
My oldest daughter is a huge anime fan, so I know lots of those Japanese quirks of shaping an English word to fit the Japanese mouth. I don't consider that slang or linguistic laziness. In fact, I find that adaptive import appealing and totally Japanese in nature. One of the absolute best parts of the English language is the vast number of synonyms many words have from our historical adaptations from other languages. It makes English so expressive to be able to choose between the synonyms derived from Romance languages which are more descriptive, emotional, and decorative and those derived from other languages (Germanic springs immediately to mind) which are less emotional, more precise and logical.

The comparison between Parisian French and Quebecois isn't quite this area, either. If I were comparing British English to American English, the situations might be more analogous. My question is not differences between separate groups, but variations within one group. So, do Parisian French speakers fracture Parisian French grammar the way many Chicagoans butcher say, subject-verb agreement? My overseas traveling acquaintance said that he never encountered the same level of grammatical slaughter in any other language as he did and does in English.

So, why are you learning Hebrew? For the first time in my life, I'm meeting a fair amount of Christians who are studying it as part of larger Bible studies. I'm finding that coping with the fibro and all my current studies and family responsibilities are crowding out any chance at expanding my Hebrew (despite having a willing tutor in my daughter.) Someday, maybe. I'm just glad to be well enough to manage everything I'm already doing!
 
posted by [identity profile] doubleplus.livejournal.com at 04:40pm on 2004-02-23
This looks pretty good to me. It uses images for fonts, so you don't need to have fonts installed, and it specifically mentions that it doesn't use JavaScript.

If that doesn't work for you, this page has links to that one and others.

(Google-fu 'bible new testament greek' to the rescue!)
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 01:25pm on 2004-02-24
Thanks. Extremely useful. Loads much more quickly than I expected, too.
 
posted by [identity profile] figmo.livejournal.com at 06:55pm on 2004-02-23
[livejournal.com profile] little_cinnamon is a Greek filker who might be able to help you.
 
posted by [identity profile] madbodger.livejournal.com at 08:02pm on 2004-02-23
With the MacOS X input method for Greek, and full Unicode support,
the Greek parts of the internet suddenly become fairly accessible
(except for the inevitable broken windoze sites).
 
posted by [identity profile] keith-m043.livejournal.com at 11:17pm on 2004-02-23
I still have my Blue homeric greek workbook (the blue one with excerpts (sp?) from the Odesssy in it. I also have a copy of the greek lexicon called "middle Little" by St Johnnys. It only gets you from anc. greek to english and not the reverse. I will stick them in my car next to the copy of enterprise that I was going to give you.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 01:32pm on 2004-02-24
I emailed my mom last night to ask whether my copy was findable -- she hasn't answered yet. Borrowing yours would be useful; thanks.
 
posted by [identity profile] madbodger.livejournal.com at 01:16pm on 2004-02-24
A bunch of us are doing sock puppet theatre, and the first play is Sophocles'
"Oedipus the King". I was curious if I could find the Greek version on the web.
At first I was stymied by the fact that I don't know the Greek spelling of
Sophocles (it turns out to be Σοφοκλεουσ), so I tried doing a Google search
on "Oedipus" (in English) and then ruminated on Greek words that were
reasonably common and I could spell. I finally settled on "πετρα" ("rock"),
and found it

here.


So things seem to basically work, using MacOS X, Safari, and the Greek keyboard method.

 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 01:33pm on 2004-02-24
I'm going to have to see how much of that carries over to OS 9 and iCab or Opera. I hadn't tried from the Mac yesterday. (I'm going to borrow some of your improvised search technique too.)

Links

January

SunMonTueWedThuFriSat
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24
 
25
 
26
 
27
 
28
 
29
 
30
 
31