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posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 02:43am on 2004-03-04

I didn't sleep enough Tuesday night; felt not quite right all Wednesday; realized in the evening that although I could probably have coped with rehearsal, I was not up to the drive, so I called in sick; had been unable to sleep despite being can't-concentrate tired, so I made a "tryptophan bomb"; still failed to sleep (the tryptophan helped make me feel sleepy instead of just tired, but not enough -- I probably shouldn't have tried to save calories by skimping on the size) and was too out-of-it to do much more than post a few comments and note a bunch of things to get around to commenting on when I'm more awake; finally felt drowsy enough to try sleeping again; nearly nodded off, and was suddenly awake again ...

So I picked up the guitar next to me in the bed (yes, I sleep with a guitar, most nights ... sometimes other instruments, and right now there's a mandolin in the bed as well ... this is what they're in bed for) and started noodling, thinking that at best it would relax me and at worst at least I'd get some practice in and be distracted from how frustrated I was about not sleeping.

About twenty years ago, I wrote a rude bass line. It's something I wrote specifically to be rude; it's deliberately difficult for other people to work on top of -- the idea is to make them laugh and say, "wiseass" -- (but I keep thinking something really cool would come out if anyone ever meets the challenge, and maybe someday I'll get around to making a machine play it for me so I can try soloing over it myself). It's mostly in 5/4 time, but every few measures it drops a beat. When it finally wraps around to the beginning, it's out of phase with itself. I started playing that a few minutes ago, and then thought, "What would happen if I made a polite version of this, in some time signature that's easier for other people?" So I lengthened and shortened notes and made it swing a little, and quickly found a version that felt sane and normal-ish.

I counted out what I'd just come up with. It's in 12/8.<.p>

And on realizing that, suddenly I was awake enough again to get up and post this. Whoops.

Hardly the most obscure time signature out there, but just uncommon enough that once I write it down I know somebody's going to look at it and go, "Urk?!" for a moment. But now I'm dying to find out whether other people will find it feels as natural to play as it does to me, despite the time signature.

Anyhow, I'm reminded of the first time I played in 5/4. Ray, my second roommate, the paranoid one, was teaching me some stuff on guitar (which I was still a beginner at, at the time), and he decided he wanted to have me play a simple chord progression so that he could solo over it. But I kept screwing up the beat. I couldn't keep it straight in 4/4, so over and over again I fell into 5/4 by accident. This drove him nuts for two reasons; first because I couldn't keep it together in 4/4, and second because in his worldview no human[*] should find 5/4 more natural than 4/4. A few days later when he saw me walking while playing in 5/4, that bothered him even more. "How are you able to do that?!" (I dunno, if you think in pairs of measures, it becomes a ten-count, and that's an even number like the number of legs I've got, so it works out, eh?) I did eventually outgrow my problem with 4/4, and nowadays the time signatures everyone else is familiar with are the ones my hands most often fall into by default (uh ... assuming "everyone" includes enough Celtic musicians for slip-jigs to be in the set "everyone else is familiar with") but oddball beats still slither out of my brain from time to time.

[*] No, he wasn't completely convinced that I was one, but the idea still bothered him.

There are 15 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] joemorf.livejournal.com at 12:20am on 2004-03-04
One of my favourite arrangements is a version of What Child is This? in 5/4. I dig that meter, but I find that most (square) folks rush - perhaps because they're only hearing the emphasized beats and not he underlying quarter-note pulse, I dunno - but it cooks.

Lately I'm having trouble wrapping my head around 3/2 - or anything/2 for that matter. My brain just doesn't want to think of a half note having one beat. I usually end up doubling the count in my head to get to the quarter notes that I'm used to...

One of the coolest things I ever heard was a percussion-heavy piece whose dominant meter was 11/16. That thing blew your hair back.

~j

 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 01:23am on 2004-03-04
Hmm. You and [livejournal.com profile] kathrynt have mentioned tunes that I now want to hear. I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of that if more people comment.

As for half notes as the counting unit, isn't that basically what happens in cut time? That is, it's written out as though it were in 4/4, but played and counted as though it were in 2/2.

Other than cut time, most of the n/2 that I see (3/2, 4/2, and 6/2 are all I recall seeing off the top of my head) is in early music (where they're likely added by a modern editor -- if you have no bar lines, I'm guessing you also don't have a time signature), but 3/2 also shows up in English Country Dance. I've seen "Hole in the Wall" transcribed in 3/2, 3/4, and 3/8, and I actually find it easiest to read in 3/8 or 3/2 (when I run across an arrangement that has some harmony parts I don't already have etched in my brain). And "Mr. Isaac's Maggot" has this tension between on-beat and bouncy where thinking in half-notes really feels right. But until I'd run through a couple of ... basse dances, I think, but I'd have to go look them up ... a bunch of times, I had the same problem you described convincing/reminding myself that a half note was one beat when I ran into 4/2 and 6/2. (Even now, I have to stare at it and think "halfnotehalfnotehalfnotehalfnote" to try to set all the switches in my brain before starting to read an unfamiliar piece, but it does make it easier to get the feel of the piece right if I'm actually counting halves instead of doubling the beat in my head to count quarters.)

Hmm. I'm going to have to take notes on my mental processes the next time I pick up a piece of music in n/2.

I can think of a few people I hope chime in on this thread ...
 
posted by [identity profile] joemorf.livejournal.com at 01:54am on 2004-03-04
I just started singing with a church group. (It helps pay the rent, but penciling my charred eyebrows back on as I leave the service every week is starting to be a pain.) That's where I was exposed to 3/2 - I'll have to check the date on the material to see if it falls within your theory, I don't recall offhand.

You can hear a brief sample of my quartet singing that arrangement of What Child Is This? here. (Scroll all the way down.) (The only other clip on that page where my quartet sings in its original configuration is on Go Tell It On The Mountain. I make no claims on the quality of those other quartets ;) )

~j
siderea: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] siderea at 01:31pm on 2004-03-04
Other than cut time, most of the n/2 that I see (3/2, 4/2, and 6/2 are all I recall seeing off the top of my head) is in early music (where they're likely added by a modern editor -- if you have no bar lines, I'm guessing you also don't have a time signature)


No way. Time signatures predate barlines by a lot.

BTW, once upon a time, what we now call a whole note was a beat. That's why we we call 'em "whole notes".

While some 16th c. music was essentially noted with the half-note-equiv having the beat, an awful lot of period music, when transcribed into modern notation by modern (recent) editors, is halved: those 6/2 pieces were originally 6/1.
 
posted by [identity profile] kathrynt.livejournal.com at 12:37am on 2004-03-04
12/8 will be intimately familiar to jazz musicians -- it's 4/4 with triplets. "12/8 beat it in 4" is a very common time signature in jazz.

*my* favorite time signature thingie is "Deck the Halls" in 7/8. It sounds like a waltz for someone with one leg longer than the other.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 01:40am on 2004-03-04
Yah, that's why I wrote, "Hardly the most obscure time signature out there, but ..."; it'll be unfamiliar (but not quite "wacky") to a lot of people I play with, but it's not really rare in a larger context. (I've seen a strathspey transcribed in 12/8 instead of 4/4, but I don't know how common that is.) This new version of that bass line has notes that cross triplet boundaries -- I need to play it more to figure out whether it's really "12 beat as 4" with something hemiola-like, or a distinct form of 12. GIven that it didn't feel strange while I was playing it, it may well turn out to be basically "four triplets" underneath.

Your description of that verison of "Deck the Halls" (which I want to hear) reminds me of a set we've been doing in The Homespun Ceilidh Band -- the first tune is a jig, the second is a slip jig, and the third is sortakinda 27/8 (two measures of 6/8, a measure of 3/8, two more measures of 6/8, repeat). It's like a jig for someone with a strange number of legs.
 
posted by [identity profile] joemorf.livejournal.com at 01:57am on 2004-03-04
I love Deck 7/8 - the bass part is SO much fun to sing - and the last verse (the way my quartet does it anyway) where from the from "Fast Away..." you sing it at a blazingly fast tempo - too much fun!

~j
 
posted by [identity profile] juuro.livejournal.com at 01:33am on 2004-03-04
Sometimes a behavioral modification will help with insomnia. Currently you have conditioned yourself to use the bed for purposes other than sleeping. Bad. By all means, if you are unable to sleep, do something else. But do it off the bed. Then when you get sleepy, go to bed. If necessary, repeat. But condition the dinosaur brain to associate the bed with sleeping, not with interesting intellectual activities.

When I finally stopped reading in bed, I found I sleep better. Of course there was a transition period, a week or two, if I recall. Now, if I am unable to sleep, I move over to the comfy chair and read there.

As far as rhythm is concerned, the Western music traditions are a bit ... unadventurous. In some other traditions, 7/4 is the starting point for more interesting rhythms to build on.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 02:17am on 2004-03-04
I've heard that advice regarding making the bed a sleeping-only place before. I've actually tried that, but admittedly didn't try as hard as I should've. A separate problem I've got is that if I'm sitting somewhere else doing "as long as I'm up" things, when I finally do feel sleepy enough to crash the act of getting up to go to the bed is usually enough to wake me up again. I'm not sure how to get around that yet.

This morning, playing guitar was supposed to be just noodling and playing myself to sleep; the intellectual part sort of happened by accident (and is the reason for the "and suddenly I'm awake" -- I was making steady progress in the direction of sleep until I noticed it was in 12/8).

I've wondered whether having a recliner near the computer would be a good thing (or just having a recliner at all) -- the idea is that I'd find a comfortable-enough position to sit and read (electrons or dead trees, either way), and when I find myself nodding off, just tilt it the rest of the way back and close my eyes.

"the Western music traditions are a bit ... unadventurous"

*nod* We've got some cool stuff in that regard, but it's considered non-mainstream or just unusual mainstream (e.g. "Money" by PInk Floyd, which is in seven, and the original Mission: Impossible theme, in five). But even those are unadventurous compared to, say, a Turkish 9/8 counted 2+2+2+3. (OTOH, there's the score to Pippin, which is pretty trippy in places -- but hey, the exception that tests the rule.) We do have folks deliberately blending African or Eastern rythms into Western ideas, but I'm not sure whether they're thought of as extending Western music or standing betwen Western and Other. I'm also not sure what's state-of-the-art in jazz these days. (When I do hear jazz on the radio it's dumbed-down, easy-listening jazz, and I get bored very quickly. Modern jazz isn't my first choice of genre, but I would like to have non-"llite" modern jazz among my listening options.)

Hmm. Does klezmer count as Eastern, Western, or its own category?

Fortunately there's still a lot of room for music to be interesting even within the confines of the most common Western time signatures.
 
posted by [identity profile] juuro.livejournal.com at 02:41am on 2004-03-04
I label klezmer as crossover. Some of my Israeli friends call it "Jewish Jazz". Which I have difficulty with, since I don't "get" jazz but intensely like kletzmer. I never made the bepop transition; instead, I'm stuck in the swing and dixie era.

And, indeed, rhythm and meter is not the only criterion for music to be interesting. For instance, when papa Bach pushes his tonal machinery in motion, the result is captivating. Mozart, though unforgiving for the performer. And so on and so forth.

Not to mention the untold unnamed musicians, whose work lives on in the traditional music styles, such as Celtics. Here I have often felt that whereas someone else might give the rhythm line to another instrument and let the lead carry a melody, at least the Irish tradition seems to have the an union of the rhythm and the melody.
 
posted by [identity profile] realinterrobang.livejournal.com at 10:58am on 2004-03-04
Funny, I was gonna mention klez as soon as I saw this thread. :) I've heard klezmer described as "Yiddish swing," which is actually probably more accurate than "Jewish jazz," but we won't get into that. (Y'all like swing, right?) I mean, tell me the most famous klez piece ever (that'd be Bei Mir Bistu Shayn) isn't swing...

In my copy of The Compleat Klezmer (Sapoznik/Solokow), some of the arrangements at the back are in common metre, but they have things in them that look sortakinda like "stretch triplets" -- they're sex- and septuplets. I can't even start to hear something like that in my head, and my software won't cope with it. Which is why...

I'm bringing the book to Pennsic next year. You can look at it there, and see if there's anything you like. I'll photocopy some stuff for you, but I'm not lending it, sorry. (I'm gonna get you a copy of Nakht in Gan Eydn just because I like it so much, though!)
 
Since I'm not musical enough to comment on that part of this I'll just say that I've been up for most of every night this week as well. For me, part of the fibro is always dealing with seasonal transitions. It warmed up here (by you, too, didn't it?) and so my body is reacting by not sleeping. Grrrr....

As for the bed issues......for me the fibro has meant expanding the role of the bed at times (wish I could right now!) I know all about that behavioral concept but with the fibro the bed HAS to be for wakeful resting as well as sleeping so I can't do nothing but sleep while I'm in it. It would be nice if I could......
I've has polysomnography and, of course, I'm abnormal (like I needed a test!!!) Have you gone in for one of these?

Thanks for the John memories again. That all make me laugh -- I can *SO* picture all of it, especially him not being convinced that you were human. You should have told him you were passing.
*Snerk*
 
posted by [identity profile] puzzledance.livejournal.com at 06:51am on 2004-03-04
I don't think I could sleep with instruments in the bed. I'd be too worried that I'd roll over and crush them, or kick them off the bed, in my sleep.
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posted by [identity profile] hobbitblue.livejournal.com at 07:58am on 2004-03-04
Wah, I don't gets to sleep with a guitar! Forest won't let me. Well, its only a single bed and if there was room for anyting other than me in there he'd insist it was him, which I guess is fair enough ::giggle::
i love playing guitar just before I go to bed as it relaxes me, but I think I'd just be tempted to stay awake and noodle if it were there all the time; mind you with the fibro thing its good to see you've stuff to keep yourself occupied close at hand, Forest tends to get up again and then gets too distracted.
siderea: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] siderea at 01:37pm on 2004-03-04
Oh, when I was a youngster composing at the piano, I frequently found myself to have written something in 5, quite inadvertantly. Once, I spent the better part of a week trying to notate something quite syncopated, which it only eventually, and to my horror, dawned on me was 5/4.

And one of my favorite pieces in Jr High band had every fifth measure in 5. :)

BTW, did you know there's a (common) interpretation of "Maravillosos" (13th c.) which has the refrain in 5?

I don't think of 12/8 as even vaguely exotic; but then, I was raised in classical piano, and I gather it's more common there.

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