Others had pointed that out over in acroyear70's journal, and yes, that's a practical problem with torture (which ought to be enough of a reason not to use it, but sadly doesn't seem to be). It's also part of the reason I specified hypothetical situations in which torture could actually be useful -- because when designing a thought-exercise you can sidestep such real-world pitfalls as the lack of absolute knowledge.
(That is, if the setup for the imagined scenario is that we know the prisoner does in fact have the information we seek, know the prisoner is "evil enough" to "deserve" torture, and know that we can "break" him to a point where he won't give us false but believable information instead, then we can argue about the morality. And that's the type of example usually brought up in such discussions. You, on the other hand, are pointing out what I was too subtle about earlier -- because I expected my readers to already have filled in those blanks -- the flaws inherent to any such examples: that real world situations are not that tidy, and perfect knowledge of any of those conditions is unlikely and perfect knowlege of all three impossible or nearly so.)
So I'm saying one can imagine a situation where torture might be expedient, and use that imagined situation in a debate (as many people have done); not that it actually is useful. And then I built an argument against it in that context. Your real-world-problems argument against torture is at least as valid as my philosophical one.
"But it makes the torturer *feel good*. And maybe that is the most hideous thing of all."
Alright, I'll play devil's advocate. The Israelis have had success with such tactics when they know there's a bomber coming but they don't know where. They get rough with the right people and they manage to keep bad things from happening. Or at least they feel they keep more bad things from happening than were they not getting rough.
And at what point do you define something as torture? Note the changes over time as to what is considered cruel and unusual punishment.
I'd be very interested in seeing documentation on how often Israel gets real information, bad information, and no information from it's torture practices. Absent that, I have trouble taking a claim that they -- unique amongst torturers ever -- get consistently good results.
As a second issue, I'll also state uneqivocally that even if Israel had a 100% success rate with torture, that doesn't make it morally acceptable. Israel's permission of torture is one of the most damning things about them.
(no subject)
(That is, if the setup for the imagined scenario is that we know the prisoner does in fact have the information we seek, know the prisoner is "evil enough" to "deserve" torture, and know that we can "break" him to a point where he won't give us false but believable information instead, then we can argue about the morality. And that's the type of example usually brought up in such discussions. You, on the other hand, are pointing out what I was too subtle about earlier -- because I expected my readers to already have filled in those blanks -- the flaws inherent to any such examples: that real world situations are not that tidy, and perfect knowledge of any of those conditions is unlikely and perfect knowlege of all three impossible or nearly so.)
So I'm saying one can imagine a situation where torture might be expedient, and use that imagined situation in a debate (as many people have done); not that it actually is useful. And then I built an argument against it in that context. Your real-world-problems argument against torture is at least as valid as my philosophical one.
"But it makes the torturer *feel good*. And maybe that is the most hideous thing of all."
Ewww. Agreed.
(no subject)
And at what point do you define something as torture? Note the changes over time as to what is considered cruel and unusual punishment.
(no subject)
As a second issue, I'll also state uneqivocally that even if Israel had a 100% success rate with torture, that doesn't make it morally acceptable. Israel's permission of torture is one of the most damning things about them.