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posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 10:38am on 2005-06-13 under

While the traditional, "open road" cruise control continues to be useful, long drives this past weekend got me thinking about how much I'd like to have an "in traffic" cruise control.

That is, in addition to "maintain this speed", which is only useful if there's either nobody in front of you or there's plenty of room for smooth lane changes as needed to avoid crawling up someone else's tailpipe, I'd like to be able to tell the car, "maintain a following distance of [minimum safe distance + user-specified comfort buffer] seconds from whatever's in front of me".

Such a cruise control would probably need to be linked to the brakes, not just the throttle, and even with the ability to brake it might be good to have a warning tone sound when the car in front decelerates at an unusual rate. (And just as with traditional cruise control, the idea would be simply to make driving a wee bit easier, not to lull the driver into no longer Paying Attention, since what I'm describing is still short of an autopilot.) Additional tweaks to the algorithm would include setting a maximum speed, which would double as the speed setting for reverting to traditional cruise control when there's no vehicle in sensor range, and detecting lane changes (as momentary override plus acquisition of a new sensor target).

This is the front-bumper parallel to what I've wanted on the back of my car for a while now: a rangefinder coupled to my spedometer which would light up a "You Are Too Close" sign whenever someone tailgates me.

There are 24 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
ceo: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] ceo at 02:45pm on 2005-06-13
They've been workng on "adaptive cruise control" for a while now, but needless to say it'll take a lot of engineering to not be incredibly dangerous.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 02:47pm on 2005-06-13
Damn. As so often happens to me, someone with a time machine stole my idea before I thought of it.

OTOH, it means someone else is doing the engineering for me.
 
posted by [identity profile] whc.livejournal.com at 02:45pm on 2005-06-13
Distance based cruise control was first developed in the '70s, but was not widely used. I think it may be available on a few cars. I suspect US liability laws may be slowing its availability.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 02:53pm on 2005-06-13
Yah, at the same time as I was wishing for it, I was thinking about how folks would misuse it. I may be missing something on the liability front, 'cause it seems to so-not-a-lawyer me that manufacturers ought to be able to set things up in such a way that ten-T errors are clearly the legal responsibility of the users, but I can see how it'd be some work to engineer out as much of the temptation to stop paying attention as possible.
 
posted by [identity profile] doubleplus.livejournal.com at 03:39pm on 2005-06-13
I'd settle for a cruise control that adjusts to the steering and hills a little more like a live driver, which ought to be a much simpler engineering problem. That is, it reduces speed based on how sharp you're turning, and it slows a little going uphill and speeds up a little going downhill. Hitting a decent curve (not a sharp one, just the kind you encounter on interstates) with cruise control on can be more than a little scary, because you don't realize how much you automatically slow down for curves, so it feels like it's accelerating. All these adjustments would reduce the number of times I have to turn off cruise control temporarily in moderate traffic -- any time you go uphill, it's easy to tell who's using cruise control.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:42pm on 2005-06-16
The curves don't bother me, because I'm still seeing them coming and compensating if needed (though yeah, it's a little different, disengaging the cruise control with a light tap on the brake pedal or thumbing a switch where normally I'd just lift my foot off the gas pedal a bit). The places I tend to use cruise control don't have enough curves sharp enough to bother disabling cruise control for me to get tired of having to turn it back on again after each curve. If I were dealing with such curves more often (or driving the stretch of Beltway near the Mormon Temple at hours when traffic were light enough to use the cruise control) I'd probably feel differently (so it's still an interesting problem to solve).

On moderate hills I like the fact that the cruise control keeps my speed steady. It's only on larger/steeper ones that I start wishing it'd start playing with gravity instead of against it, but at that point I'm usually in WV on hills so steep that the cruise control gives up and switches itself off going uphill. (OTOH, if it allowed gravity to speed it up on the downslopes, it might make it a bit farther along the upslopes.) Of course, it also depends on the reason I've turned on cruise control. Sometimes it's because I've got a hunch a speed trap is coming, and specifically don't want it to speed up on the downslopes.

It'd be interesting to have a cruise control that a) wasn't just a really basic feedback loop with a whole bunch of "turn yourself off" conditions, and b) exposed enough of its programming that I could tinker with the algorithms. I could burn a lot of time (and gasoline) playing with that.
 
posted by [identity profile] doubleplus.livejournal.com at 03:41pm on 2005-06-13
On a related note, Toyota apparently has an automatic parallel parking option on the Prius in Japan.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:49pm on 2005-06-16
#blink# Is that kind of like when aircraft autopilots became capable of landing the plane?
 
posted by [identity profile] blumindy.livejournal.com at 03:52pm on 2005-06-13
Within the last year I read and saw several reports on current technology which functions as you desire and the car company involved was scrapping it.
The test drivers hated it because it was not beeping but actually braking. This made for a car the kept slowing down based on sensing braking on the part of the car in front of it. There was no corresponding mechanism to speed back up, only a setting to maintain X distance from the car in front.
Eventually, the car was dropping below 25 mph based on sensing the slowing on the car ahead and being set to maintain a minimum distance. The description also sounded like a jerkier ride than I'd find comfortable.
 
posted by [identity profile] eviltomble.livejournal.com at 03:18am on 2005-06-14
That reminds me of an ironic discovery they had on the news a few years ago. They found that on (some?) motorways, the faster traffic tried to travel, the later the vehicles would arrive at the far end, or something along those lines.

It was to do with something akin to shock-waves travelling through the traffic when something slowed down ahead, and IIRC this turned out to be the cause of many pile-ups and areas of congestion and so on.

I'm not a driver (why am I reading this entry in fact? :D ), so there's probably others who know and can explain this thing a lot better than I, but I still found it pretty interesting so it stuck in my mind somewhat.
 
posted by [identity profile] doubleplus.livejournal.com at 04:36pm on 2005-06-14
There was a Scientific American article a number of years ago (wish I had kept a copy) about density waves traveling through traffic. Above a certain traffic density, a slight slowdown can cause traffic to come to a halt some distance back. This is basically the fallacy of "rubbernecking" that you hear about on traffic reports all the time. As amusing as it is to believe that big traffic jams on the opposite side of the road from an accident are caused by idiots slowing down to 5mph to "take a look," they're actually caused by people slowing down a little bit when they see a problem ahead, but don't yet know if it affects them. (This is why there aren't rubbernecking delays when traffic is light.) Does anyone believe we'd be safer if people didn't slow down when they see trouble ahead?

Another interesting bit from the article is that density waves travel backward and forward from an incident. I've recognized this once I learned to look for it; people think they're out of the woods and try to speed up to cruising speed, but things haven't quite cleared out enough, so it jams up again. It can be pretty mysterious if you get onto the road after the incident, though; you keep hitting slowdowns, but never pass anything that has caused them.
 
posted by [identity profile] eviltomble.livejournal.com at 04:51am on 2005-06-15
YES! That sounds just like the thing I meant, thanks! Although,
the fallacy of "rubbernecking" that you hear about on traffic reports all the time.
*chuckle* You might, I don't listen to 'em ;) (see "not a driver" disclaimer above)
density waves travel backward and forward from an incident
*blink* Now that seems rather surprising! I wish you'd kept a copy even more now! :D
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:54pm on 2005-06-16
I'm sure I kept a copy, but darned if I know which box in the basement it's in. If we're talking about the same article, the authors described their method of undoing stop-and-go jams, which sounded interesting, but where I usually encounter that sort of situation (I-495 and I-95) I don't have the loooong straight stretch of road in my rear view mirror on which to observe the results of what I'm doing, the way the authors did in the experiment they did.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:46pm on 2005-06-16
That sounds like the design was only half finished then. It seems to me that if I can make the adjustments smooth and speed back up, I can make a computer do so.
 
posted by [identity profile] maugorn.livejournal.com at 04:27pm on 2005-06-13
I dunno, Tennessee.....

There's just something about a machine controlling *my* car and not the others, or even portions of my car and not any others that's really squicky.

It may have something to do with that question I ask that usually makes would-be engineers very annoyed at me:
What is it's most likely failure mode?

This is a no-win scenario. You desire to install a machine that has the ability to apply your car's brakes (not supplement, not augment, but to actually apply them) What happens if it suddenly fails to work? Is that failure mode now to *stop or slow down your vehicle* or to *NOT stop or slow down your vehicle*?

Common sense indicates that the driver should automatically override any autopiloting mechanism. This application is elegant enough that it would be necessary to install not just the ability for the driver to "play thru" whatever the CC is doing, but for the CC to actually *sense* what the driver is doing as well. What happens if the CC is doing something and fails to sense driver input? By the time you've gone and designed something whose ONLY default failure mode is to return complete manual control to the driver, you've added a whole lot of other pieces to the chain, ALL of which will have their own failure mode.

I have a suspicion that the driving that you describe is a whole order of magnitude more complex and chaotic than you're envisioning and that the amount of things you are not aware that you are doing has a very high "rude awakening" potential, especially when it comes to deciding what HAS to happen should your device fail to work, and what *could* happen if you fail to anticipate something. I have a sneaking suspicion that the engineering problems you'll need to solve involve a viewpoint that far transcends picturing the car only from the driver's POV.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:37pm on 2005-06-16
I like having the option of complete control over my machine, but I'm comfortable with that being an option instead of the Only Way. Despite that preference, I somehow manage to drive a car with an automatic transmission (as long as I haven't just gotten out of a car with a stick shift) and fuel injection. And I've gotten used to inertial locking seat belts and am slowly coming around to the idea of air bags (though I still dislike the "attack belts" that I have to put up with). Each of those, along with conventional cruise control, involves surrendering some of my control. Even on a car with a carburator, when was the last time you saw a manual control for the choke?

Okay, so with the exception of conventional cruise control, none of those work the accelerator for me. And with the exception of ABS (which I don't think my car has), none touch the brake. So yeah, I get the (rather significant) difference. My point is that I'm already used to letting machines control parts of my car for me, so while the difference is meaningful, it is not absolute.

One design principle I'd argue for is: where feasible, allow the driver to override the automation. We have this completely in a conventional cruise control, in a very limited form in an automatic transmission, and not at all in an automatic choke. I very strongly agree with your statement that the system must allow the driver to "play thru", as you put it. I don't think that's an unsolvable problem, though it's a little more complicated than with conventional cruise control.

"that question I ask that usually makes would-be engineers very annoyed at me: What is it's most likely failure mode?"

And you've probably already noticed that real engineers don't get annoyed at that because they're trained to have already asked it. While I'm only in the would-be category myself, I do know enough that the moment I take an idea for something that controls my automobile past the "idle daydream" stage, paying close attention to failure modes becomes crucial.

"I have a sneaking suspicion that the engineering problems you'll need to solve involve a viewpoint that far transcends picturing the car only from the driver's POV."

Why should it, if I'm already capable of performing the same task manually with only the driver's POV? I can see how it might turn out to require greater (or different kinds of) intelligence than we're able to build into machines, but I don't see where a need for information not available from car-based sensors would come in.
 
posted by [identity profile] maugorn.livejournal.com at 05:54pm on 2005-06-17
>but I don't see where a need for information not available from car-based
>sensors would come in.

That's because you're not realising the total complexity of the task that you are performing when you think you're *simply* following the car in front of you. You're operating as a portion of a VERY BIG PICTURE.

ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more complex is what the engineers who HAD the money, HAD the tools, HAD the mandate, found and had to give up.

You're not just acting on the data from the car in front/back/sides etc.
When you're in traffic, you're analysing (hopefully) data that's coming in from all directions and at a range and complexity that is going to completely dwarf what some motion/distance/light sensors will give you. Just in the visual light spectrum, along with noting positions, motions, etc, you're analysing data that is being communicated in several colors (tail lights, reverse lights(!), brake lights, turn signals, traffic lights, cop lights, tow truck lights, signage, on and on and on) and this IS data that you're using when you're simply following stop and go traffic. AND you're gathering it from WAY out front, from behind, and from the sides, and all at ranges that are beyond the immediate neighbor cars.

Then there's the data that you're gathering from the distance and apparent motions of cars, front, back, side, and AT A DISTANCE far beyond the neighboring cars. You're analysing trends, events, modifications to trends, histories, and comparing it all to HUGE databases of past history and cross indexing it all on what ever cartological and geographical data you possess. And YES YOU ARE DOING THIS IN STOP AND GO TRAFFIC, and YES IT DOES COME INTO PLAY- FOR EVERYONE.

And you may not realise it, but you're also observing the behaviour of the other drivers and trying to piece their behaviour into "profiles" that you then use to predict what they are likely to in certain circumstances, and do so that your response times to their behaviour can be decreased and that your responses to them are more, not less productive to your game goal. This requires a certain amount of empathy, and when that process breaks down via a particularly narcissistic or randomly influenced driver, then the whole supersystem begins to disintigrate real fast. And this is what I meant when I said that in order for a traffic autopilot (even for the brakes) to work effectively, you're eventually going to need data that transcends the POV of the individual driver. For better or for worse, drivers SYNTHESISE those other POVs on the fly in real time, and respond to them. The drivers who can better empathise with the other drivers and the drivers who can better communicate their needs and intentions at a distance are the drivers who fare better.

You're attempting to posit what is essentially an AI protocol to take over a task for you, and I'm warning you that the reason others could not succeed on time and within budget is NOT because they aren't [personal profile] eftychia, but because what looks to be a very straightforward task is actually orders of magnitude more complex than we ever imagined.

Welcome to AI research. Surprise! Get used to that phrase!
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 08:25pm on 2005-06-17
You've pointed out that the problem (actually, a somewhat different problem than the one we started off with) is much more complex than it appears at first glance, but you still haven't shown that it requires information not attainable from car-mounted sensors. In fact, my ability to safely and smoothly operate a car in traffic without listening to advice radioed from a spotter or looking at a display showing the view from other locations refutes your assertion that the task requires information not available from the driver's POV. (Not that the additional inputs couldn't be useful; just that they're not required.)

Furthermore, I'm not talking about an autopilot; I'm talking about an assist for an alert and attentive driver. This may not make the problem trivial, no, but it does make it a different size of problem than what the folks trying to design automated driving systems were trying to solve.

Penultimately, I didn't envision this for stop and go traffic (though I was not explicit about that); more for "too heavy to just set a speed and go, but moving well" situations.

And finally, please note that I labelled the entry "driving daydream" and said, "I'd like to have"; not "why isn't there...?" or "it should be trivial to design" or "I think I'll go build".
 
posted by [identity profile] maugorn.livejournal.com at 04:05am on 2005-06-18
>In fact, my ability to safely and smoothly operate a car in traffic
>without listening to advice radioed from a spotter or looking at a
>display showing the view from other locations refutes your assertion that
>the task requires information not available from the driver's POV.

I wouldn't claim a refutation touchdown just yet. There *is* the small matter of a five yard penalty for logical fallacy ("Extension", I believe).

My claim had nothing to do with needing "spotters" to drive. That is a rather nonsensical extension of what I actually said. I actually spoke of empathetic synthesis of these other drivers' future decisions performed at a distance on the part of the driver, based on behaviour and signals that they percieve at a distance.
I claim and still claim that these mental simulations of other drivers are an essential part of traffic behaviour and the data that is gathered to generate these simulations is not only HUGE, but is beyond the range and scope of anything one can mount on a car today.
FI: There are NOT sensors current that can analyse an entire LINE of cars ahead of you for patterns in the info being given to you by the brake lights. I'll bet that there are not sensors available that can correctly read traffic lights while a vehicle is in motion. And that's just a minute FRACTION of the data that one uses to drive, even in a "just follow everyone else" scenario. The amount of data one uses just for that is astonishingly complex, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

Tell you what tho, design for me a sensor and a program that can either:

- correctly collect and analyse brake light behaviour patterns
- OR read a traffic light in daylight from an automobile in motion

at 1 kilometer ahead of you. Do that, and you can claim to refute me and I'll not only agree publickly that I've been refuted, but also perform the "Glenn Was Right" dance with wardrobe and music of YOUR choice!

In the meantime, I stand by my claim that this kind of assist, on the scale that you originally proposed proved to be impractical because the engineers involved had not anticipated how mind-bogglingly big and complex the data set they needed for implementation actually is.

You could also attempt a rather feeble cop-out and try to claim that this info is not needed for a safe and accurate driver assist. But that is going to be an even harder sell, because you'd have to convince me that YOU don't use this info in traffic to make or streamline your braking decisions.
 
posted by [identity profile] dfn-doe.livejournal.com at 06:20pm on 2005-06-13
Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, and Jaguar all have a radar based cruise control available on some models in some markets. Me, I've 3 cars with cruise control and have probably used it less than 20 times. Maybe it's just me, but I like being the one doing the driving, sometimes on long drives the activity of driving can become taxing, but I'd much rather realize I'm getting tired and pull off the road for a break than be so uninvolved with what the car is doing that I could easily nod off behind the wheel... Also, my faith in technology is simply not good enough to trust any telemetry system in a commercially available sedan, what happens when a grocery bag floating through traffic smacks a couple of the radar trancievers and your car commences emergency braking on the freeway taking both you and the people following you by complete suprise. Seems like a small glitch has a high potential for causing bad situations...
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:02pm on 2005-06-16
Before I got a car with cruise control, I thought, "Cute toy, but what's the point?" It wasn't until my first >4 hour drive using it that I finally got the point.

The benefit, at least the way I use it, is not that one can continue driving when tired, but that one can drive longer before becoming tired. And I agree that it's important never to become uninvolved in the act of driving -- I'm still paying attention to my speed, as well as everything else; I'm just relieved of the burden of constantly tweaking it until I observe a situation that requires my intervention.

As for the grocery bag scenario, I'd want to do a whole lot of testing on any design+algorithm I came up with, to be sure problems like that had been solved, and it'd still have to have instant manual override the moment the driver touched a control.
 
posted by [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com at 07:25am on 2005-06-14
Intelligent Vehicle Highway Systems sort of approximate this. They were in the works a good decade ago; one memorable picture was of 6 BMWs going 60 mph with one car length separation, and a pair of hands poking out each drivers side window. I really should go to bed, so I shan't look it up just now.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:09pm on 2005-06-16
*nod* They solved the control-loop problem, but (because the car was doing the driving, not the human) not the user-interface issues I was thinking of. One advantage to that approach is that the cars (as you menioned) can be more closely space. One disadvantage is the reluctance so many of us (including myself) have to trusting the equipment quite that much.

Was that one of the systems that required the roadway itself to be "smart" as well? I know someone tested a design that was entirely car-contained and autonomous, but I think that was more recent and only prototyped in a single vehicle.
 
posted by [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com at 04:28pm on 2005-06-16
Required a limited access roadway where all cars were smart; not sure whether there was anything further that was smart about the roadway.

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