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"Heinlein's stories about this always used to be particularly chilling for me because I could tell he had thought out his predictions very carefully and had researched them thoroughly .. including the particularly chilling insight that the general public had taken such a long time to figure out what Scudder was up to that the coup was all over before they realized anything was wrong. Heinlein was dead on the money with that particular part of his analysis .. I've seen evidence all around me that people just aren't getting how dangerous the dominionist movement is, partly because the most frightening public statements they make are encoded to sound innocuous to people outside the movement, just like this one, and most people in the mainstream just don't hear them for what they are, or they just plain don't want to know because they're afraid to think about the implications.
"I cannot stress enough that the dominionist movement needs to be watched very closely on a continuous basis, because if they *are* setting up to attempt a theocratic 'Christian law' coup in this country, there may be very little if any overt warning of it before it's too late to stop it. I'm basing that on past history, particularly the NSDAP takeover in Germany in the 1920's-1930's, as well as what I've seen from the movement itself .."
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(no subject)
In today's information age, what happened in Germany would never go unnoticed here or abroad. Too many bloggers, news reporters, and just plain nosey people around.
(no subject)
Many modern free societies have been transformed into closed autocracies and dictatorships. It's happened in our lifetime, and it's happening now.
The moves to make the US a closed society and to subvert the rule of law are happening and are succeeding.
Google the author Naomi Wolf and check out her lectures on UTube and check out her book The End Of America She has made a chillingly convincing case for it, and the subsequent harrassment she's recieved as a result is, by itself, a red flag.
The "terrorist threat", The Patriot Act, the Attorney General Scandal, secret prisons doing non-appealable dention torture (That DO have authority to detain citizens if the PRESIDENT declares you an enemy combatant),the unauthorised surveillance by and clemeny of the phone companies , TSA harassing foreigners, various government lists that are nearly impossible to get off of EVEN IF YOU HAVE NOT COMMITTED A CRIME.
Our current Administration is laying out the groundwork for precisely what Heinlein foresaw and more or less for whom (tho I personally think that the Domininionist Movement is just a pawn for the usual rich power/privilege that always seems to collect most of the marbles)
And it's not unnoticed here or abroad. It's just that we're not, as a society, listening to what they say about is in Germany or in the "leftwing media", that is so conveniently dismissed by usual "ad-hominem" tripe.
What will it take to convince you?
A lot (and I mean A LOT) of the same things that happened in Italy, Germany, Hungary, China, and on and on and on, are all happening here. Much of it can be reversed, but we absolutely can not count on it just happening without some pretty proactive steps on the part of significant parts of the citizenry. Yes, I said citizenry. This is not a job for the experts or tthe pundits. We, collectively, have to vote the bastards out, and make absolutely sure that those who come in dismantle what's been done.
And while we're at it, those responsible really need to be held accountable and charged with crimes, otherwise it's just going to pick right back up the next time one of their cronies can steal another election, if they don't steal this one too.
(Reply to this)
(no subject)
Oh stop, stop right there. We are NOT the same. If you think so, please go talk to my friend's grandparents who immigrated from Germany in the 30s, right as the Nazis were taking over. Saying that they had "economic problems" is like saying an atomic bomb causes a "little exposion".
My friend's grandparents literally filled a wheelbarrow with money to buy bread. Had they not left when they did, they wouldn't have been able to get out. While gas prices are soaring, the American dollar is tanking against the Euro, and now the Canadian dollar is worth more than our, we are nowhere NEAR that state.
Sure there's a lot of crap going on with the government and I'm not that pleased with it. But if you look at history, there's been crap going on with the government since governments started. The difference is that we can find out about these things NOW, when they are happening and not 30+ years down the road after it is too late to do anything about it.
The fact that people are upset about the government and can express it is proof that we will never go down the road that Germany did.
And frankly, if you post on uTube, a blog, or other free Internet resource, I'm bound not to believe you. If the mainstream media is jumping to conclusions, leaving out facts, and misrepresenting the issues, think of how objective someone with the "OMG the US is going down the toilet" view is going to be.
Seriously. Case in point, violent crime has significantly DECREASED in the past 10 years but reporting on violent crime has increased something like 600% giving the impression that it is on the rise, which it isn't. My HS was known as the ghetto drugs and guns school because we were portrayed so negatively in the press. While we did have some issues, we had excellent academics, I never felt unsafe, nor was I ever propositions for drugs or saw anyone with a gun. Did the media every put stories like having the most National Merit Finalists next to the super-nerd magnet school on the front page? No. All they reported was that yet another TC kid was busted for drugs. Well guess what, that happened at the other schools too but white kids who's parents can afford high-powered lawyers to get them off don't make the media.
I'm not saying sit back and everything will be alright. We do need to vote, watch the issues CRITICALLY from all sides, and take anything anyone says with a grain of salt.
(no subject)
"The fact that people are upset about the government and can express it is proof that we will never go down the road that Germany did."
I'll concede that there are a lot of differences that may turn out to be important (I'm neither an economist nor an historian myself), but this statement is the biggest point of disagreement I have with what you're saying.
As others have pointed out elsewhere, that we can say some things some times in some places does not automatically make us free of oppression in our speech; even in some countries we consider unfree, people are given a few places to vent, and even here where we take free speech for granted we are corralled into "free speech zones" at public events, and people are put on the no-fly list for criticizing our president if they're deemed important enough/influential enough to be considered a threat.
More importantly, that we can say such things now is no proof that that cannot change. I was reading somewhere the week before last, an analysis of German humour that illustrated people being openly derisive of government figures at one point, then almost overnight the jokes all changing to much safer things to say after ... I forget the trigger exactly, but I think it was a particular law being passed. (See previous comment about my not being an historian.) If Germans the night before had said, "See, we have free speech; the fact that we can make these jokes about our leader proves that we can never be censored by some would-be dictator," they would have been proved wrong the next day.
"Never" is a word to be used very, very carefully.
Note that if I already thought we had become proto-Nazi Germany, I wouldn't be agitating for change; I'd be thinking it was too late and trying to become as inconspicuous as possible. Or at least posting from behind several layers of aliases with encryption and onion-routing and scheduled-delivery tricks to try not to let the authorities figure out it was me.
We are heading in that direction, we have been heading in that direction, and I don't want us to get there. I'm not saying that we are already there (I'm aware that others are saying so); I'm saying that we're closer than I'd like and pointed in a frightening direction.
(no subject)
Let's see:
- Post WWI Italy - Probably had the best outcome from the war but people weren't doing too great there either. Mass immigrations to the US because of poverty and unemployment.
- Post WWI Hungary - A moment of silence please for the Austro-Hungarian empire. They were a little busy trying to reorganize after being dissolved. Plus the Hungarians were completely bulldozed by the Russians in WWI taking over 1 million casualities.
- Post WWI China - They were denied territory after the war which lead to a renewed nationalism movement and the rise of communism. Again, poverty and unemployment were high and there were mass immigrations to the US.
Historians might be pulling facts and doing comparisons but that's like saying this oak tree and that sea kelp both have green leaves so they must be similar. The problems that Germany and other post WWI countries faced are NOT the same as the problems the US faces. There were many, many social and economic conditions that they had that we don't have and will never have. WWI forced Europe to come out of an antiquated 19th century mentality and into a 20th century one. Monarchies were gone, new governments and countries came in. People didn't know what to do. All that they knew is that their old way of life and national identity was violently and quickly taken away from them. Someone came in promising them hope, a return to their old lives, and national identities. It is much different for someone who's family has lived in a region for hundreds of years and associated themselves with one nationality and king/monarchy to suddenly be told that they are no longer said nationality and they have no monarchy. Americans will never go through that. (Well the Native Americans did but they aren't a majority.)
There is NO comparison to America. It's a completely different time, different issues, and different way of life. We've always had security issues, people just don't remember them. Air Marshalls were always present on planes in the 70s. People in government jobs regardless of the position have always been fingerprinted. In the 80s, everyone was afraid of being blown up by the Russians. Inflation and gas prices were much worse in the 70s as well.
Note that folks like me aren't saying that Bush is like Hitler; we're saying that he's on a course similar to that Hitler took to become Hitler, and we shouldn't just hand him all the tools he would need if he's really going to go there.
Again, no. Even if the Republicans stay in power, they are trying to distance themselves from Bush. There will be a regime change. We have enough checks and balances in place that even if things get bad, they can be reversed relatively quickly. Once Hitler was in power, there was no way to get him out. And he was in power way longer than any US president could ever be. There is no comparison other than both men were idiots.
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If the Republicans remain in power, it's gonna be "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"
There is a move credible, viable, movement afoot to shift the role of government from leadership to rule and to shift a scary amount of power into the hands of the Executive Branch.
As of the passage of the Military Commissions Act, the President, RIGHT NOW has the power to imprison ANYONE he deems to be an enemy combatant, and the MCA specifically states that no other court has jurisdiction over that act.
The imprisonment has no appeal, no review, and no oversight. And Gonzales, the boss of the judiciary tap-danced around this, publicly stating that Habeus Corpus is not a right of the US citizenry.
This state of affairs has NEVER existed to this degree in this country, and does not exist in a free society. It exists and has existed in plenty of totalitarian societies, like Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. And it was not poverty that created those conditions, it was those in power consolidating power and abusing the system and then outright claiming power. Both Germany and Italy, despite their economies had Habeas Corpus rights in their Constitutions, until they were suspended at the order of their Executives and passed with the approval of their Legislatures. THAT is what set the stage for Extreme Executive Power, NOT poverty. Poverty was an enabling factor because it was a distraction, not because it was a cause.
(no subject)
1) Does the president have inherent powers under the Constitution to conduct surveillance for national security purposes without warrants, regardless of federal statutes?
2) In what circumstances, if any, would the president have constitutional authority to bomb Iran without seeking a use-of-forc authorization from Congress?(Specifically, what about the strategic bombing of suspected nuclear sites- a situation that does not involve stopping an IMMMINENT threat?)
4) Under what circumstances, if any would you sign a bill into law, but also issue a signing statement reserving a constitutional right to bypass the law?
5) Does the Constitution permit a president to detain US citizens without charge as unlawful enemy combatants?
6) Does executive privilege cover testimony or documents about decision-making within the executive branch not involving confidential advice communicated to the president himself?
7) If congress defines a specific interrogation technique as prohibited under all circumstances, does the president's authority as commander-in-chief ever permit him to instruct his subordinates to employ that technique despite the statute?
8) Under what cirumstances, if any, is the president, when operating as commander-in-chief, free to disregard international human rights treaties that the US Senate has ratified?
9) Do you agree or disagree with the statement made by former Attorney General Gonzales in January 2007 that nothing in the Constitution confers an affirmative right to habeas corpus, separate from any statutory habeas rights Congress might grant or take away?
10) Is there any executive power the Bush administration hs claimed or exercised that you think is unconstitutional? Anything you think is simply a bad idea?
So all of the Democratic candidates answered, and they tend to agree with what I would hope a responsible president would do. You can check out the answers at Boston.com. (I'll go back and fetch the specific website if you wish, I just don't have it on hand) The point is this:
McCain is somewhat sensible but a very hawkish about these answers. He *might* be okay. But he declined to answer Question 10, his answer for 9 is "depends on what the Supreme Court says", and his answer to number 5 is right in line with the current trend.
Romney is squarely in the current Right Wing Fascist mode. His answers commit him to staying ont the current course.
However:
Giuliani and Huckabee both declined to answer ANY of these questions. NONE.
Thompson didn't either, but he's been eliminated.
Of the current Republican contenders, ONLY McCain shows any promise of supporting the restoration of our basic rights, but only where it suits him.
And Giuliani's and Huckabee's silence on these counts is tells volumes.
Another Republican administration would be IMHO, be a serious blow to Democracy in this country.
Go to your local bookstore, and just browse thru Wolf's The End Of America. You don't have to buy it or spend your money. Just a little bit of your time. That's all I ask.
Don't say "It can't happen here". It's happened, and it's happening now.
I happen to agree with Wolf's assessment that we're much farther down that bad road than we've been before. The empowerment of the Executive (the President) to suspend habeas corpus, and imprison anybody based on the Executive labelling you an "enemy" combatant, and to then imprison you without access to counsel in a place that's beyond jurisdiction, where torture is an acceptable interrogation technique, is just a little more Nazi than Democratic, don't you think. We're not *there* yet, but neither was Germany, and yes, our economic incongruities do give us alot of leverage, we're right now, at a tipping point where our similarities could rapidly degrade until economy is NOT a factor.
There is TOO much power in the executive branch RIGHT NOW, and it sure don't look to me like the Republicans are ready to relinquish it without a fight and without a LOT of pressure from US.
(no subject)
Unless, of course, every time a blogger or a reporter notices and tries to call attention to what they've seen, everybody else responds, "Don't be silly, in today's information age that could never happen here."
It's not that the US in 2008 is Exactly The Same As 1930s Germany; it's that there are enough similarities -- and trends -- to be concerned about not letting things get any more like that. And yes, some of the circumstances are different, but we've got at least two groups (with some at-least-apparent cross-membership) wanting to take advantage of things like the Threat To The Homeland that 9/11 presented, we've got politicians and pundits seriously arguing that a) we need to surrender some of our freedoms for safety and/or b) the country needs a more totalitarian/less hampered by checks-and-balances government in order to survive this threat, and not getting laughed out of the room for saying things like that.
It's a different situation, yes, but enough historians are getting concerned (I've quoted a couple of them before) to make me concerned that "sit back and ignore it and it'll work itself out" could be the wrong answer.
The biggest reason most people give for "it can't happen here" is that American citizens wouldn't put up with it. But if we're all so certain that other citizens will take care of stopping such things, and too few of us actually do the work of defending liberty, then by the time everyone gets fed up enough to admit that there's a problem, it'll be too late.
If it doesn't happen here, it could possibly be because the conditions aren't right or the players who want to take the reins aren't skilled enough or ruthless enough -- maybe -- or it could be because enough of us notice the similarities and the direction and speak up to prevent it. If I have to gamble (and I do, I'm not being given a choice here), I'm going to make the safer bet and encourage people to ensure that it doesn't happen here instead of relying on American Exceptionalism to allow us to ignore the lessons of both distant and recent history.
Note that folks like me aren't saying that Bush is like Hitler; we're saying that he's on a course similar to that Hitler took to become Hitler, and we shouldn't just hand him all the tools he would need if he's really going to go there.
(no subject)
The information has not been going unnoticed -- but it has been ignored, as it was in Germany.
(no subject)
People are on a religious trend. It will pass. In the 70s it was the Equal-Rights Ammendment and if you weren't a feminist, you were sunk politically. In 10 years we'll have some other hotbed issue. All these are trends and they come and go.
Personally I think the resurgence of religion is a backlash against the 60s and rebellion against all things traditional. We've swung the other way. We'll swing back.
(no subject)