eftychia: Me in kilt and poofy shirt, facing away, playing acoustic guitar behind head (Default)
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posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 05:26am on 2008-02-10

From the Quotation of the day mailing list, 2005-11-08:

"The debate between those who believe in evolution and those who believe in "intelligent design" is always formulated in terms of what we should teach our children. Some say both theories. Some say only one.

"Here is what we should teach our children: nothing, none of it.

...

"Here is what we should teach our children: how to think; how to look at evidence and determine reasonable conclusions that can be derived from the evidence; how to know what constitutes evidence; how to interpret evidence."

-- Roger Schank in Edge: The Reality Club, Edge 168

(submitted to the mailing list by John Karabaic)

There are 12 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] smallship1.livejournal.com at 11:52am on 2008-02-10
Oh yeah. Give them recipe books but no ingredients, no pictures and no actual food. That'll work.

I despair of these clear thinkers sometimes.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:45pm on 2008-02-10
The extreme position, whatever its faults, is sometimes useful for pointing out less extreme possibilities in roughly the same direction. (I don't actually agree with the quotation but found it interesting enough to throw out there. There's a germ of good policy within that toxic hull and distracting endosperm. It needs to be refined, and combined with other ingredients to make a wholesome intellectual meal for schoolchildren.)
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea, in a friend's kitchen (Default)
posted by [personal profile] redbird at 02:14pm on 2008-02-10
Right. So, no science at all beyond the lab safety and method lessons, just lots of mathematical logic. Or are we still allowed to teach them Newton's laws, because nobody is trying to argue that those are somehow anti-religious? Yes, by all means mathematical logic--it's a huge gaping hole in the curricula right now, in most places--but not just that.

Will he throw out anything vaguely controversial in the social studies/history curriculum as well?
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 05:19pm on 2008-02-10
Remember, gravity is only a 'theory' ... (http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p67.htm)

The idea presented in the quotation is problematic enough without considering how to extend it to history, so I'm going to stick to the science and use that extreme position as a launching point for some thoughts about science education (and probably reach some conclusions that better science teachers have already arrived at by other routes).

What if we start out only teaching the fundamental scientific-reasoning skills (using age-appropriate examples), let the students 'discover' (with guidance) things like Newton's laws, then as more complex scientific facts are discussed focus on explaining how others worked them out, and eventually make the shift to teaching facts and formulae as the concepts being taught get to the point that recapitulating the discovery process each time would take too long (with occasional science-history tidbits thrown in to remind the students of what they learned about the scientific method in earlier years, lest they forget that it all still applies).

Even the approach I've just outlined probably needs refinement (at least -- maybe it has more basic problems), as it's just an off-the-top-of-my-head first draft, but it connects Schank's prescription to a complaint I've seen elsewhere about too many science teachers Not Really Understanding the subject, and consequently teaching a bundle of facts as handed down from authority instead of teaching an understanding of -- and appreciation of -- the process that led to our knowledge of those facts.

(And that in turn connects to my own oft-repeated complaint about too many early math teachers not really understanding math, and consequently doing damage that I, when I was teaching and tutoring, wound up having to undo. With mathematics, you really can have the class derive everything from first principles so that none of it is ever "this is just how it works". With science, a lot of the experiments would take far too long or require absurdly expensive equipment (not many high schools have cyclotrons), so at some point we do have to shift to "somebody discovered this" instead of "you can find this out on your own with our help".)
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 05:45pm on 2008-02-10
After I wrote, "a complaint I've seen elsewhere about too many science teachers Not Really Understanding the subject," I tried to remember where it was that I'd seen it. Oh yeah, it's tomorrow's QotD ...
geekosaur: orange tabby with head canted 90 degrees, giving impression of "maybe it'll make more sense if I look at it this way?" (Default)
posted by [personal profile] geekosaur at 03:17pm on 2008-02-10
Hm, I think the above are missing the point. Without the facility of critical thinking and analysis, either one is merely argument-by-authority and evolution becomes as much of a "religious" doctrine as creationism.

That said, creationists are even more opposed to critical thinking than to evolution, because it outright encourages people to question Authority.


 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:37pm on 2008-02-10
I mostly agree with [livejournal.com profile] smallship1 and [livejournal.com profile] redbird but found it interesting enough to quote anyhow for more or less the reason you gave. The most effective approach[*] probably lies somewhere between (not just 'between', but with the components presented in the proper manner and order).

[*] Assuming, of course, that the goal is instruction in science, not indoctrination -- an assumption most of my readers will probably think goes without saying.
cellio: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] cellio at 09:44pm on 2008-02-10
Bingo. Teach accepted science, teach theories as theories, but above all else, teach the ability to think, which too many people seem to lack. I still remember one of my "aha!" moments in this vein quite clearly; a history teacher presented some evidence, explained "what it meant", and asked us how many bought it. Every hand went up. Then he read us "Digging the Weans" by Robert Nathan and most of us got it. (Sadly, a good chunk of the class still did not.) What's sad is that I remember this so clearly because it was unusual. I want that kind of poking, challenging, critiquing, and analyzing to happen every single day in a child's upbringing.
 
posted by [identity profile] jmax315.livejournal.com at 06:46pm on 2008-02-10
Well, I was going to post a rant here, but there's a couple good ones already, so I won't.

I will add one more thing that I don't see mentioned anywhere, and I think it's the largest problem of the bunch: Most people don't want to think; they'd _rather_ just accept authority.

This boggles me, but it seems to be so. I don't like it; I wish I knew how to correct it, but I don't.

And trying to teach someone how to do something that they actively don't want to do is an exercise in futility. Now, we need to teach this anyway, so that the precious ones who can benefit from it do, but I see no hope of most people getting anything out of it.

So, it follows that since most people would rather accept authority, it is crucially important that authority supply the most accurate information available.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 09:48pm on 2008-02-10
Ugh. A better point than I'd really like to accept.

But I wonder ... can that not-wanting-to-think be overcome -- at least for long enough to get the basics inserted into their brains -- by starting young enough, when children are still exploring and discovering their world at speed, before they've fallen into "just tell me" habits.

This does, of course, reflect a distinctly Montessori way of thinking about young students. :-) Which may make it harder to implement in US public schools. :-(
 
posted by [identity profile] jmax315.livejournal.com at 05:53am on 2008-02-11
"...can that not-wanting-to-think be overcome..."

I don't know.

If it can, I don't think schools can do it; much as I am grateful to my early educators for the fine job they did, I truly believe that it would've been for naught with the encouragement and support of my parents.

Although, amusingly, I eventually realized that Dad's point of view was that I should question all authority except his. Unfortunately for him, I missed that modifying clause until too late...
 
posted by [identity profile] madbodger.livejournal.com at 11:01pm on 2008-02-10
Yeah, that'll work! I found out, firsthand, what actual thinking will get you in a public school environment. Basically, you pour a bunch of kids into a blast furnace blender and apply heat and pressure.
The malleable ones melt into a dull, homogenous whole. The brittle ones break. The tough ones toughen
more, yielding a mix of hero-types and the most destructive and successful criminals in history.


Not that I'm bitter.


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