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posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 09:05pm on 2008-08-31
[screencap of my LiveJournal recent-entries page yesterday]

Yes, I'm going on about LiveJournal-specific stuff again. While this is just to explain things to my LJ readers, I'm mirroring it to the other sites anyhow for the sake of completeness. Or maybe because my mind got infested with hobgoblins, I dunno.

The short version: LJ did something I find unacceptable. I don't want to vanish entirely from the view of my LJ-using friends, so I'm posting these "hey, new entry over here" entries on LJ but no longer posting whole entries there. I know I'll lose some readers, and I'm not happy about that, but I feel I have no other reasonable option. This makes me sad.

---------------------------------------------

At least a few of you noticed that my last few entries, including quote-of-the-day entries, have been posted to LiveJournal entirely behind what look like cut-tags, and a few of you have noticed that those are really links to full entries on sites other than LiveJournal. I've gotten some questions, some emphatic complaints, and at least one wrong (but close) guess. I did anticipate that folks would not be thrilled, and even that I'd lose readers over the change, as much as that prospect dismays me (and worries me, as I don't really have a good idea how many readers I'll lose). And I guess I really ought to provide the explanation where folks can see it easily, without extra clicking.

Really, I'm not fond of cut-tags myself, though they do have their uses. I routinely cut dreams and memes because I expect those to be 'noise' rather than 'signal' for a significant number of my friends and I don't feel as strong a need to make sure those get read as I do my other entries; and I have even occasionally cut for length (though I have a higher threshold for "needs a cut" than many people, and am more likely to cut as a way of folding/unfolding long parenthetical passages), as well as to make something easy for folks who'd be upset by it to avoid. But I'm with you on the "it breaks the flow of reading my friends-page" complaint, and I'm less likely to click a cut than to wade through a long entry right in front of me myself. So why am I inflicting on y'all something that I wouldn't particularly like as a reader? Well, basically, I feel boxed in -- this seemed like the least-bad course of action open to me when "put up or shut up" time arrived (late on the 28th).

This really goes back to Strikethrough 2007. (I hear you groan.)

Reaching even farther back than that: when I started using LJ, I liked the fact that it was free, and I liked thefact that it didn't have advertisements on it. I thought a couple of the paid-account features would be nice but I certainly didn't feel I needed them, especially considering how much time I spend broke. But after I'd been using LJ for a while and had decided that the service as a whole was something of value to me, not just a random entertainment, I decided I should pay for my account when I could, to support the site. (I don't recall whether my first-ever spell as a paid-account user was that, or whether someone had gifted me some paid time before then. I did receive gifts of paid-account time on several occasions, which meant that I had a paid account a little more often than I could afford to pay.) Once I'd gotten used to, for example, being able to create polls, I decided I really liked having paid features, but my main reason for scraping up the money when I could was really still to support this site that was giving me a service I valued even at the basic level; getting the extra features was a bonus, not the motivation.

Then Six Apart, who bought LJ, did some vile crap.

I wasn't hit directly, but I was sufficiently offended that I realized the Proper action would be to say, "If you don't make this right, I'm leaving." But I wasn't prepared for relocation, so leaving would have carried a high-enough cost to me (in terms of starting over) to make me flinch ... and I flinched. (And felt shame at having flinched.)

I took a somewhat lamer step though, and reverted my account to basic, withdrawing my financial support and stating (yes, in fora that site-management read) my reasons for doing so and my hope that they would redeem themselves enough to again be an organization that I could support in good conscience. Six Apart never did really get a clue, I think -- they made some gestures in the right direction, but didn't do enough. And then they went and did similar crap again, showing by actions (though denied in statements) that their advertisers' concerns carried more weight than those of their users. (An understandable -- even predictable -- prioritization for a company built on an advertising model, but I hope equally understandably offpissing to a user base that had been around longer than the advertising.) So in addition to "Do I want to support an organization that does that?", there was an added layer of, "Do I want to pay to be treated poorly?"

I started investigating other sites using the LJ software, both to prepare a bolt-hole in case 6A did something else that I really could not abide (multiple ones, in case my first pick went 404, turned evil, or got sold), and to try to keep up with (and be findable by) friends who had already fled LJ in disgust, in protest, or both. (With only partial success on that second bit. *sigh*) But while I wanted to not feel 'stuck' in LJ, I also really didn't want to leave. LJ is a social networking site in addition to being a blog host, and thus it matters where other users are. I really, really hoped that 6A would listen to the message its users were sending, correct its course, and be worthy of my cash again.

SUP bought LiveJournal, and some users predicted doom and gloom while others held out hope that the new owners would have a Clue (or show signs of being able to learn when Clue was handed to them). My message was that I really wanted SUP to be a company we could trust, and that would treat its users in a way that I felt I could support. SUP made some disagreeable moves early on, digging the hole deeper, but eventually at least started learning how to talk to LJ users, even if their even greater emphasis on ads was offputting (to put it mildly). Lately it's felt like they're taking three steps forward and two steps back, whereas at first it seemed as though they were making two steps back for each step forward. There are still some important bits missing, and the trust problem is not helped by things like taking away the ability to create basic accounts and using the excuse they used. Nor did the announcement that they were "bringing back basic accounts" that turned out not to be what we used to call basic accounts -- that there would be advertising attached somehow even to 'basic' accounts (which used to be the distinguishing feature between 'basic' and 'plus') and that, contrary to an earlier promise, existing basic accounts would not be grandfathered when ads were added to so-called 'basic' accounts.

They floated a few proposals for how to add ads to basic accounts, some better than others, depending on one's priorities and one's purpose in blogging. One of those, I considered poison. Alas, they decided on that one.

More than a few people who do not have LJ accounts and do not wish to for whatever reasons -- I'm not really sure how many, but a few I know in meatspace have mentioned it -- regularly read my journal. And as far as I can tell, I'm getting occasional non-LJ-user readers finding my journal via search engines (or links from non-LJ blogs). As of 2008-08-28, those people started seeing advertisements on my 'basic' LiveJournal journal. That's not cool, for a couple of reasons. First, because I know some folks are going to be put off by seeing the ads, so if there are ads I want it to be only because I decided that what I gain by having ads is worth more than losing whatever percentage of readers find ads distasteful enough to not come back. And I haven't decided that. Second, because if my words are being used to sell advertising, I want a cut. And third, because here I've decided that LJ -- as 6A and then as SUP -- has not (yet!) earned my support, and SUP has gone and said, "Oh, that's okay, we're going to make money off of you anyhow."

(This "show ads to not-logged-in readers seeing basic users' journals" business is obviously not so toxic to every basic user. Some post friends-only, so nobody can see their entries without being logged in anyhow; others don't expect, or don't care about, random strangers' and their impressions; some consider the ads to be such an insignificant factor that they're just not concerned regardless (though why anyone who thinks that wouldn't get a Plus account instead eludes me). We don't all have the same priorities here.)

Hey, their site, their investment, their rules. They can do that if they want. But also, hey, my content -- I can take it out of their playground. I'd rather have them earn my respect and my money than sell my work to advertisers, but that's not the direction they decided to go.

I know they have to get their money from someplace, but the whole point of withdrawing my financial support, however tiny it had been, was to tell them that if they wanted it from me, I wanted to see the policy problems fixed first. And yes, I realize that I'm effectively saying I expect something for nothing by continuing to use the site without paying. But as long as that was an option they allowed, I figure that was cool. They've now said "no free rides; either pay or be bait for the advertisers," which is not an unreasonable thing for them to say. And seeing that I do have options -- despite drawbacks like having a lot of people not follow me -- my answer to that reasonable announcement is a similarly reasonable, "since I don't like that, I'll put my writing elsewhere instead." This is not about whether LJ has some moral or ethical obligation to support free users (especially if, as they appeared to back when that 'strike' business was going on, consider those of us who wish to send them a message as 'enemies' (*sigh*)) without imposing ads -- we've had that conversation and I've stated my PR arguments, my for-the-good-of-the-community arguments, my economic arguments, and my admittedly weak ethical arguments (basically: "but you told us you weren't gonna!", which doesn't qualify is a 'contract') in that conversation. Them what 'as the gold made their decision, and that conversation's done; now it's just a question of how I act in light of the new rule.

I am, yes, trying to have my cake and eat it too, by continuing to post links to my new entries elsewhere. I accept that my decision not to support SUP at this time carries a cost, and I'm trying to minimize the pain as much as I can without resorting to whining, "but activism shouldn't inconvenience me." The Absolutely Correct path would be to delete everything except a message saying why I'd left, and not post to LJ again until/unless they live up to my standards. I'm doing this halfway: continuing to post pages that they'll put ads on, but having the only thing on those pages be the pointer to the part worth reading elsewhere. (Well, I hope my journal's worth reading anyhow.) I get a fraction of the value I used to get from LiveJournal, and they get a fraction of the revenue they'd hoped to get from my journal.

If they'd already convinced me to resume paying for an account before throwing this latest wrinkle in, this would be a much more difficult decision. It wouldn't affect me then (as currently implemented but if this doesn't bring in enough money, expect them to impose more ads more places), and I seem to have gotten pretty good at finding excuses and rationalizations for "not leaving quite yet" these past several months, so I'd have to weigh just how much I really cared purely as a matter of "preserve the atmosphere of classic LJ" principle. As it is, it does affect me, so the decision, while still terribly unpleasant, was at least obvious. Either tell SUP/LJ, "I'm a blowhard who can make lofty arguments but in the end you can go ahead, ignore everything I've said, and walk all over me," or demonstrate, "Yes I really did mean what I wrote, and will act in accordance with that reasoning even when it costs me more than a few dozen minutes of typing; even when it costs me some of what I'm here for in the first place."

Sadly, this makes me even less likely to pay for an LJ account in the future, because the longer I have to get used to not sharing my entries on LJ, the less value LJ will have for me even ifwhen SUP does demonstrate they can be trusted to treat their users well.


In the meantime, while I know that some of you will disagree with my reasons or think that I'm right but that a Strongly Worded Letter would have been enough without changing my posting habits, and I know that many of you find the extra step irritating because it does disrupt the scrollin'-thru-the-friendslist groove (and you have to do the OpenID dance to post a non-anonymous comment), I hope that most of you will at least understand that this is no mere caprice, and will click through to check out what I have to say anyhow, or will follow me to Blurty, CommieJournal, CrazyLife, DeadJournal, GreatestJournal, InsaneJournal, JournalFen, or Scribbld, (or DreamWidth when that becomes active) and friend me there.

And if you do not, I will understand. I knew there would be a price in readership. I wish it had not come to this. I'll miss the insightful, funny, helpful, and snarky comments from those of you who stop reading.

Just don't call this a 'flounce'. I'm not doing it for Teh Drahmah (I had hoped to make the change low-key but I underestimated how much the cuts would upset people). And I'm not even doing it to Make A Statement to SUP -- I've made my statements to SUP, explicitly, carefully, and repeatedly, when I told them why I had reverted my Paid account to Basic and what the consequence of imposing ads on existing basic accounts would be. (And I made my statement in a place where a representative of the company assured us the staff were reading every comment.) They didn't believe me, or more likely bet that I represent an ignorable minority (in which they may well turn out to be absolutely correct), or both, and "put up or shut up" day arrived. They took an action I'd said would be unacceptable, and here I am not accepting it. It's pretty simple, regardless of how annoying it is.

I'll entertain suggestions for ways to make this even less dramatic, and less inconvenient for y'all and for myself. So far this is the least painful of the solutions I've come up with consistent with my concerns. If you have a solution that neither violates the LJ TOS nor lets LJ earn advertising dollars from my writing, and is less annoying than this, I'll listen.

In principle, I should turn off comments on the LJ fake-cut entries, so that the comment pages won't be able to generate ad revenue either. But I figure that would annoy people even more, who want to post non-anonymously with the fewest extra steps possible, so I'm just going to hope that the comment pages don't get many ad-views.

I haven't chosen a 'main' site yet, but I'm posting the same content everywhere except on LiveJournal anyhow, so if you want to pick one, see where most of the comments start showing up, I suppose. I've got a partial design in my head for a system that'll gather the comments from all the copies of an entry into one place, but I haven't started trying to build it yet. DreamWidth is making smoother inter-site interoperability one of their goals, so perhaps they'll build something that will save me from having to roll my own (in which case they'll be my "front door"). Currently, InsaneJournal and CommieJournal are at the top of my list, and IJ is where I've been seeing the most comments other than LJ. The site that each fake-cut links to may differ (it's the alphabetically-first site without ads from the list of sites the entry has been posted to 140 seconds after the script started trying to post to all of them at once. If it points someplace other than whatever you've picked as your preferred place to read me, by the time you see the LJ entry the real entry should have showed up on my 'recent entries' page at all the other sites, barring site problems or network problems).

Additional reading:

I'll let someone else find old links giving background on Strikethrough, Boldthrough, the breast feeding kerfuffle, the removal of Basic accounts, the monkeying with the popular interests list and interest-searches, the ominously vague statements regarding interpretation of also-vague policy, statement/action inconsistencies, and other reasons why LJ is in a position of having to earn trust back. I need to go do something else for a while.

There are 37 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] skreidle.livejournal.com at 01:42am on 2008-09-01
wtl;dr. :P
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:15am on 2008-09-01
Which was why I stuck a summary up at the top. :-þ
 
posted by [identity profile] skreidle.livejournal.com at 03:19am on 2008-09-01
I'm sort of tangentially aware of such things, but with an always-logged-in Paid account, I've yet to see a single ad. I though they'd returned some free option without showing ads? Or is it that they don't show -you- ads, but show them to visitors, or the reverse, or what?
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:44am on 2008-09-01
They kept using the language "bringing back basic accounts", so that anyone reading in a hurry would think that they were doing what that sounds like -- restoring the option of creating free/ad-free accounts with minimal features. And a lot of people cheered that and never did read any farther. But what they did instead was to convert all existing basic accounts into this new type which, yes, doesn't show the user ads but does show ads to (not-logged-in) visitors. They were counting on most folks only bothering to be tangentially aware. And/or only caring whether they personally were forced to view ads install Adblock, not what others see when looking at their journals.

(Which must mean that their logs show enough not-logged-in people coming to LJ for a peek to make advertising to them worthwhile.)

I think the idea here is to make the ads-on-basic "out of sight/out of mind" for the folks who might complain aloud, we LJ users ... not entirely sneak the ads in, because they did explain all of this in official posts, but to sneak them past all the folks who don't pay all that much attention (which probably means the number of users who bother to write comments to the news posts are too small for LJ to have to listen to, and most people aren't watching that closely). So many basic users probably won't even realize that their journals are showing ads unless their non-LJ-using cousin or coworker says something about an ad they saw there.

In the discussion of the different proposals, I wasn't the only one saying, "I don't want to be used a a vehicle for serving ads," (and a large number saying, "the ads break my carefully crafted custom layout!"), but there were also a fair number of people saying, "you'd better not make me look at an ad (but I don't care what anybody else sees; let 'em sign up and log in if they don't like ads)," as well. So somebody was going to be pissed off either way. This way a lot of people who would object won't even notice until it's been going on for a long time. And if someone accuses LJ of being sneaky about this, they'll be able to point to about 1500 comments on three or so official posts and say, "Oh, we were quite open about it."
 
posted by [identity profile] skreidle.livejournal.com at 03:35am on 2008-09-01
Tangentially related: Why on earth do you relay your content to 9 different sites?
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:54am on 2008-09-01
Safety. If leaving LJ seemed so traumatic to me, having to move twice would really suck. And if I picked a site that disintegrated under the influx of LJ-expatriates, or became a victim of its own success and had to start selling ads to keep afloat, or became so popular that it got bought by a larger company, I wanted the next place-to-move-to already established. So it would be a matter of just turning one copy off, rather than picking up and moving.

That, and of the folks who did leave LJ entirely then, whom I still wanted to keep up with, some went to GJ, some went to IJ, some went to DJ, some went to JF, some made plans to start their own site ... I haven't worked out a way to combine all my friendslists into one page yet (well, not if I want to see the friends-locked stuff), but that's the eventual goal.

Anyhow, any site where I set up an account to read with, I figured I may as well also start mirroring my posts, since the account was there. And if any of the people I went there to read also want to conveniently read me away from LJ, there I am. That's why the plan to have three or four mirrors wound up being nine.
cellio: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] cellio at 03:42am on 2008-09-01
Will an RSS feed from one of your other sites to LJ offend you? (I don't know how their ads interact with feeds.) If that's ok with you, could you pick one source site and supply the feed? Thanks.

 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:00am on 2008-09-01
I think LJ puts their ads onto an RSS feed, for not-logged-in viewers, but I need to check out what a feed looks like to somebody not logged in -- whether it seems inviting enough that folks would go ahead and read that instead of finding the site it came from, when the convenience of a friendspage wasn't involved. I need to look at that.
cellio: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] cellio at 07:06pm on 2008-09-01
I would think that the only practical use of an RSS feed to LJ is to be able to read entries on one's friends page (which means you want to be logged in, but even if you're not you won't be going to the "journal" directly). If I want to navigate URLs one at a time, I can just go to the source. The value of the RSS feed to me is to be able to say "hey, LJ, go gather up all the latest content for me". (I've explored some other RSS options and sometimes use Bloglines, but I find the interface more cumbersome.)
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 09:27pm on 2008-09-01
I got around to logging out and checking ... if somebody read by non-LJ-users links to one of my entries on an RSS feed in LJ, their non-LJ-user readers who follow that link will see ads. (Likewise a logged-out LJ user with the RSS feed on their friendslist, following the read-comments link.)

I do not yet know whether that would happen often enough to worry about.
 
posted by [identity profile] jbsegal.livejournal.com at 10:59pm on 2008-09-01
I'll note that it seems to me that asking if you mind if there's an RSS account is a RIDICULOUS question. If RSS is available, you (Glenn) obviously have no control over the reader's choice of ... Reader and to try to impose such control is pretty much useless, unless you're rolling your own and blocking referrers.

I may or may not set up such a feed.

I think "Tell your end-users to use ad-block plus/Pith Helmet/whatever it is that MUST exist for IE" is a fine, fine answer, and I work for an ad-revenue-supported company.

I also think that the days of expecting anyone to provide a successful service for Entirely Free are way over... and so do you, by noting that you're (worried, expecting) that one of your other sites will become too popular and need to sell ads to stay alive.

I wish LJ/6A/SUP coped better, and I still have vague hopes they eventually will, but in the mean time... Yeah, well.
cellio: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] cellio at 12:49am on 2008-09-02
I'll note that it seems to me that asking if you mind if there's an RSS account is a RIDICULOUS question.

I asked if it would offend him, because I want to know that about my friends. I didn't ask his permission, because (as you noted), if RSS is enabled, he can't stop it.
 
posted by [identity profile] jbsegal.livejournal.com at 04:24am on 2008-09-02
See, I totally fail to grok this... I see it the same as "do you mind if I friend you" - You can't stop it, it's fundamental to the medium, and what's the point? I don't see it as polite... I truly feel that supporting the pov that such a thing is something that the person being friended/feeded/read should be emotionally invested is does nothing but add to The (wow. I meant to misspell that...) Drahmah when the Wrong Person reads the Wrong Thing/adds the Wrong Person/creates the Wrong Feed Account.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:15pm on 2008-09-07
See my note (http://dglenn.livejournal.com/1190362.html?thread=3984090#t3984090) to [livejournal.com profile] jbsegal, above.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:12pm on 2008-09-07
It's moot. There's a feed I set up while I was experimenting and still hd a paid account, that I forgot to delete when I could (I don't think I can now), and that I forgot was there until I tripped over it recently. So unless I cut it off from the IJ end, defeating syndication for other uses as well as for LJ, it's there ... and I guess I don't have to finish mking up my mind whether I want it to be there or not. (Not, as you point out, that I could do anything about it other than state an opinion anyhow.)

[livejournal.com profile] dga_ij_feed
 
posted by [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com at 05:46am on 2008-09-01
Had planned to ask just that. Dglenn, I can't imagine a non logged in user would bother with an rss feed if there's another address at which that user can be pointed.

(I think I'm slightly confused about how RSS works; thought paid users created feeds off other sites? Or perhaps it's just that paid users set up LJ feeds from the RSS coming from other sites? )
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 09:17pm on 2008-09-01
If a site already publishes an RSS feed (as LJ-clones do), then a (paid/permanent) LJ user can create an LJ subscription to that feed (that is, get LJ to subscribe to the other site's feed and republish that with an LJ ID that can be added to your friends/watch list). The meanings of 'feed' and 'subscription' get a little confusing because of the multiple layers involved.

AFAIK, RSS feeds do not include friends-locked entries. (I do not post locked entries often -- three so far, I think, since I started using LJ -- and as has already been noted, a friends-only entry posted directly to LJ would still not ever have ads on it because only logged-in users could see it; but it's something to be aware of regarding RSS in general.)

I got around to checking an RSS feed into LJ while logged out. The feed's recent-entries page didn't have an ad on it, but that's the view it makes the least sense for anyone to spend time at anyhow. Going to the feed copy of an individual entry, LJ did add an ad. A logged-in LJ user seeing that on their friendspage wouldn't see the ad, nor when they clicked through to the read/leave-comments page for that syndicated entry, but a) a currently logged-out user or a non-user going to the read-comments link (or following a cut-tag) would see ads, and b) a non-LJ-user following a link to the syndicated entry from somebody else's journal would see ads.

I don't know whether that would happen often enough for me to care or not. Neeed mooore daaaata.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 03:14pm on 2008-09-07
See my note (http://dglenn.livejournal.com/1190362.html?thread=3984090#t3984090) to [livejournal.com profile] jbsegal, above.
 
posted by [identity profile] en-ki.livejournal.com at 03:47am on 2008-09-01
Will you take some reasonable bribe to just pick one journal to be the canonical place to put comments, have that be where the fake-cut goes, and disable comments on the others? Then if you log into LJ once with your OpenID from that journal, your LJ fans can friend that journal and unfriend [livejournal.com profile] dglenn and you can be out of here.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:14am on 2008-09-01
I'm hoping that DreamWidth can become the canonical site, but it's not live yet ...

Will the OpenID thing quite work? IIRC, I'd still need to keep an LJ account in order to see others' friends-locked entries on my friendspage (I think I'll have to go to each person's recent-entries page separately to see flocked stuff using an OpenID login), but it's been a while since I did the experiment and I can't find my notes, so I need to try that again. If OpenID really will solve the problem that neatly, that'd be nice.

I don't like the idea of disabling comments despite not really liking the conversation being fragmented either. For one thing, if I pick, say, CommieJournal as the canonical site, and disable comments at GJ and IJ and DJ, then my friends on those three sites will have to take an extra step to comment, not just my LJ friends.

For another, it feels too much like putting all my eggs in one basket: if that site crashes, goes out of business, gets bought, or turns evil, I'll have to redirect everyone to a new home yet again.

What I really want (and I'm not sure whether I can have) is a way to either aggregate comments (post comments locally if you're lazy or just want to toss in a remark, go over to X to see all the comments from all the mirrors in one place), or to propogate comments (wherever you post your comment from, folks reading elsewhere will see it as a copy of an off-site comment).

I got behind on the DW mailing lists, so I'm not sure whether they're already working on something like that or not. I've got a rough idea in my head for how to use a separate-from-all-the-LJish-sites location as the master aggregator spot, but I haven't begun working out details.
 
posted by [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com at 05:46am on 2008-09-01
oooh. I like.
siderea: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] siderea at 03:52am on 2008-09-01
How about posting to LJ (and any other secondary accounts) friends-only with comments off, and a link to comments on the primary account?
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:26am on 2008-09-01
See my reply to [livejournal.com profile] en_ki about disabling comments in all but one place (I haven't entirely ruled out that possibility, but those are the reasons I'm leaning away from that).

The thought of posting friends-only did not even occur to me! I have to think about that a bit -- long enough to let the idea start to feel less alien. In the specific case of LJ-under-this-week's-rules, it would allow known LJ readers to see my stuff directly without showing ads to anybody who hadn't already made their own decision to exchange ad-views for features (i.e. Plus users). It would unfortunately cut out unknown LJ readers (I know there are some people who read my LJ directly but have never put me on their friends-lists; I don't know how many), and LJ friends who wanted to link to one of my entries would need to remember to link to the public copy rather than the LJ copy ... I suppose if the final public entry were the "I've gone thataway" sign, that would direct the non-LJ-users whove been reading me here to go there, though that tastes wrong, and I'm not sure whether it's because there's something I really don't like about it or just the alienness of the friends-only meme.

I've got some pondering to do. Thanks for the suggestions.
cellio: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] cellio at 07:12pm on 2008-09-01
If you go the friends-only route, I won't be able to read any of your entries from work. (LJ, and most if not all of your mirrors, are blocked; dynamic-DNS hackery lets me at least read a subset of my friends page, but I can't log in using that trick. (Also can't follow cut or comment links.)) This isn't a huge consideration (I have to go back the entire day each night anyway to catch the locked stuff), but it is a minor convenience for me to be able to read the stuff that's public (and not cut) anyway over lunch, even if I won't be able to comment until later.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 08:59pm on 2008-09-01
Ah. Important information, that (even with the "isn't a huge consideration" qualifier). I hadn't thought of LJ users unable to log in from some places.
 
posted by [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com at 05:47am on 2008-09-01
this sounds happy, too.
 
posted by [identity profile] whc.livejournal.com at 02:31pm on 2008-09-01
Yeah, that would allow skimming the quotes without having to click through.
 
posted by [identity profile] skreidle.livejournal.com at 05:14am on 2008-09-01
I just can't bring myself to care, really. I've been with LJ for about 8 years now, paid account for most of that time, 99% of my readers are LJers, and and I don't much care what the anonymous unwashed public see. Sorry. :)
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 08:38pm on 2008-09-01
As I said,
(This "show ads to not-logged-in readers seeing basic users' journals" business is obviously not so toxic to every basic user. Some post friends-only, so nobody can see their entries without being logged in anyhow; others don't expect, or don't care about, random strangers' and their impressions; some consider the ads to be such an insignificant factor that they're just not concerned regardless (though why anyone who thinks that wouldn't get a Plus account instead eludes me). We don't all have the same priorities here.)
So yeah, your position is as reasonable as mine and merely reflects different purposes, usage patterns, and priorities regarding your journal. And (also as I said above) if LJ had earned my trust and respect by now, then I would already have a paid account again and this replacemt of basic accounts with an ad-supported version wouldn't affect me directly, so deciding just how much I should care would require more thought. (With a paid account, as it stands now, nobody ever sees ads on your journal except for Plus users, who have explicitly chosen to have ads served to them. Though there is the question -- here's that trust problem again -- of whether LJ will decide to do the same thing with paid accounts in the future if they don't get as much money as they expected from the so-called-basic accounts alone.

Even so, even if it did affect your journal, one difference would still be that I happen to know I have a bunch of 'unwashed' readers and do care about how my journal looks to the non-LJ-user audience. This difference probably indicates that we have slightly different motivations for blogging in the first place, which is to be expected. Note that I'm not making any arguments about what other people should do in their own journals, merely attempting to explain why I'm doing what I'm doing with my own.
 
posted by [identity profile] sodyera.livejournal.com at 02:24pm on 2008-09-01
We all find our compensators and middle-grounds to get through "life as we know it". For me, it's sticking with a Plus account and just ignoring the ads, except for the bright, flashy ones, which I have to power-avoid. For you, the middle ground may lie some klicks to the north of that. The point is that you spend the bulk of your time doing what pleases you, otherwise why bother?

I'm a media brat who can just ignore ads, so it's never been a big deal for me. Like you've said, the money's gotta come from somewhere and I'm not flush enough to pay directly for the privilege. I find your entries interesting and hope to be able to keep up, but my middle-ground finds scanning five blogs (plus all my other necessary web crap) prohibitive, so I'll stay on LJ until it becomes not-worth-it, then maybe go somewhere else. Like an old cowboy movie line I heard once, "There's goers and there's stayers." So I guess for now I'm a stayer. May you find your way as pleasant.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 08:57pm on 2008-09-01
I wouldn't like being forced to view ads while logged in at LJ, but I could learn to cope -- and probably wind up getting around to seeing whether there's a version of Adblock for Opera. My two big problems here are 1) that other people, whose opinions of ads or use of Adblock I have no way of knowing, would see ads on my journal, and 2) I don't want to support LJ until SUP demonstrates that they have adopted a fair and user-oriented operating philosophy and policies -- and providing them with the eyeball-bait advertisers need is supporting them.

Believe me, I understand wanting to stay put, especially if a critical mass of your friends are staying. It's one of the reasons I kept finding excuses not to do this, until it got to this point. It's what kept me here right after Strikethrough, when I really should have left according to principle.

I'm hoping that DreamWidth will find a way to make it possible to keep track of everybody on other sites without having five logins and five browser tabs open to do so -- we're close to that now with RSS and OpenID, but not quite.
 
posted by [identity profile] whc.livejournal.com at 02:29pm on 2008-09-01
I'm probably going to read far fewer of the quotes now that I have to click through to see them.

I went to make a comment on your IR flash post and ended up not logging in since I was presented with 3 options that I don't like:

1) get an IJ log in - probably the best long term solution, but I didn't want to bother right then.

2) Use OpenID - I've never really trusted this. It's Microsoft's log in system, isn't it?

3) Share my LJ ID and password with IJ. - I'm not going to give my login info to an unrelated site. (I guess that's part of my problem with OpenID too)
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 08:49pm on 2008-09-01
1: Yes, probably the best solution, but it still amounts to my asking you to do extra work to cope with my issues, and I'm well aware that it's unreasonable for me to expect everyone to bother.

2: Nope, it was invented/developed by LJ/6A (at least partly because nobody trusted Microsoft's version, IIRC), and is, as I recall, handled by an entity that has a bunch of different blog-hosting and other Web2.0 companies as members.

3: OpenID is, unfortunately, rather confusing ... but what it does, AFAICT, is send the login request to the site you claim to be a member of, and that site (which I think you already have to be logged into) asks you for permission to verify your credentials to the foreign site, and the foreign site never sees a password.

That is, you attempt an OpenID login at IJ, IJ contacts LJ, LJ asks if it's okay to tell IJ you're you, LJ tells IJ "yeah, he's logged in here and is the one who told you he was him", IJ gives you a you're-logged-in cookie or whatever it is that it does to create a login session.

(With luck, someone who understands OpenID better than I do will be reading this ...)
 
posted by [identity profile] whc.livejournal.com at 09:07pm on 2008-09-01
For #3, Insane journal presented me with fields for both my LJ user name and password, so it's not the open id process you described.
ext_45850: guitarist seen from behind, playing acoustic guitar behind head, with legend, "Can you hear me now?" (Default)
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.insanejournal.com at 09:34pm on 2008-09-01
Odd. That defeats the trust features of OpenID. :-( Experimenting now, to see what's changed since the last time I played with OpenID.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 10:06pm on 2008-09-01
Er ... on the IJ comment page, I see radio buttons for 'Anonymous', 'OpenID', and 'LiveJournal user'. The third one is a bug -- they forgot to change that text to say "InsaneJournal user" when IJ was set up. Whoops.

Was that the one you'd picked?

When I selected 'OpenID', two boxes popped up, for 'Identity URL', where I entered 'dglenn.livejournal.com', and a 'Log in?' checkbox (which logs you into IJ under your OpenID identity, efectively creating an IJ account of a special OpenID type, IIRC, which you can later go and associate an icon with, and that IJ users can friend to allow

The next page that opened in my browser was http://www.livejournal.com/openid/approve.bml (with a bunch of arguments after it). That page says, "Another site on the web wants to validate your LiveJournal identity. No information will be shared with them that isn't already public in your profile, only that you're who you've already told them you are (if you told them). The address wanting permission is: http://www.insanejournal.com. Do you want to pass your identity to them?" and it has yes-once, yes-always, and 'no' buttons. So I never had to type my LJ password on a page that didn't have an LJ URL.
 
posted by [identity profile] whc.livejournal.com at 12:36am on 2008-09-02
>Was that the one you'd picked?

Yep. I assumed it was some sort of interoperability with LJ thing, not a bug.

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