eftychia: Me in kilt and poofy shirt, facing away, playing acoustic guitar behind head (Default)
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posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 09:07pm on 2005-01-03

Not feeling very talkative today. Took me a while to recognize what I was feeling as early warning signs of another migraine and medicate myself against it -- hoping it works that way. (One thing I liked about Midrin is that it seemed to provide a few days of protection in addition to taking care of the migraine I took it for. AC&C doesn't do that, but it's what I've got. OTOH, it also doesn't give me that frustrating, dopey "drugged feeling" that Midrin does.) Anyhow, in addition to an "I'm alive" ping, I felt like tossing out a thought to get other folks' perspectives on...

What do y'all think about using proper typographic non-ASCII punctuation in LiveJournal entries or on other web pages? I'm thinking mostly about the correct uses of hyphens, en-dashes, and em-dashes instead of just using an ASCII dash ('-'/45/0x2D) for both the first two, and a pair ("--") in place of the em-dash ("—"), but this would also apply to opening and closing quotation marks (“ ”) instead of the symmetrical ASCII quote ('"'/34/0x22), and so on.

On the one hand, it's not a Big Deal, people are used to reading typewriter/email conventions on computer screens and know what is meant, and coding the right codes as though typesetting instead of merely typing is more effort for little gain

On the other hand, with Unicode and HTML &-codes we are no longer limited to only those characters that could've been produced on a manual typewriter and displayed on an ADM3a or VT52 computer terminal. We do not have to make do with the same conventions on the web as make sense in email, and we can make our sites and our blogs look more professional, more like books and magazines, by going back to the typographical conventions that predate the typewriter and putting the nuances of punctuation into how we type what we write for the web.

On the gripping hand1, those non-ASCII characters can be a pain in the arse when using copy-and-paste, especially when one wishes to paste text into some place where the full range of Unicode characters isn't supported or if one's operating system pastes its own special Extended-ASCII code or the Unicode value where an HTML &#; code is what is actually needed. (For example: although the Telnet client I usually use seems to be able to deal with a certain amount of Unicode, the vim editor displays numeric codes for non-ASCII characters, and if I fail to notice such characters when pasting text into email, at least one friend's mail server will reject the message. I also have to clean up non-ASCII characters when posting quoted text here in my journal.)

So ... pointless affectation, useful or aesthetically appealing liberation from the typewriter mindset, or annoying menace? I do not expect consensus, but I'm interested in how people feel about this and what they can tell me about why they feel the way they do. (Obviously, using Unicode characters so as to be able to correctly spell names and other words from languages that have letters (or accents) that English does not would be a different question -- the existence of Unicode is a Good Thing; I'm specifically asking about the use of it for punctuation that can be approximated in ASCII.)

And now to see what the second paragraph of this entry looks like in Lynx.

ETA: Lynx translated the opening and closing quotation marks to ASCII quotes and translated the em-dash to a pair of ASCII dashes. A similar browser, Links, handled the quotation marks the same way but translated the em-dash to a single ASCII dash. And I just realized this should've been a start-of-the-workday entry since I want lots of people to comment, but I'm not feeling sufficiently motivated to delete it and hand it to the 'at' daemon for reposting eleven hourse hence, now that I've already posted it.

There are 19 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] texas-tiger.livejournal.com at 02:31am on 2005-01-04
Most of the time it's a pointless affectation and annoying nuisance.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:31am on 2005-01-04
"Most of the time"?
 
posted by [identity profile] thespian.livejournal.com at 02:38am on 2005-01-04
none of the above? Do it if you want; I do it in my professional pages, of *course*...but this is a journal. It's supposed to be, in the end, what the writer is thinking, and I'd rather see that than see that they were thinking, "What *was* the ASCII code for that....?"
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 02:51am on 2005-01-04
Is that "none of the above," or "it depends on context"? ;-)
 
posted by [identity profile] leiacat.livejournal.com at 02:42am on 2005-01-04
I feel a bit dinosaurish admitting it, but I'm an ASCII sort of girl. I suspect it's because I've spent too much time on usenet, on IRC and in other non-web-based media. I'm still more likely to _pseudo-underline_ for emphasis than use something a bit more hip and HTML-y. I mostly don't mind when others get fancy, but occasionally I have to remind myself "relax, self, this here's the web, they are allowed".

As I read my e-mail in plain text, I am fairly sure my e-mail would display non-characters for anything too interesting.
ext_3482: Saturn Girl (Default)
posted by [identity profile] unlovablehands.livejournal.com at 02:58am on 2005-01-04
I use metacharacters for accented vowels. That's it.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:31am on 2005-01-04
That counts as correctly spelling non-English words, not puctuation. :-)
ext_3482: Saturn Girl (Default)
posted by [identity profile] unlovablehands.livejournal.com at 04:56am on 2005-01-04
D'oh. Well, I primarily use them for when I'm breaking out the French, but yeah. Sometimes I use em-dashes in stories, and I use the — thing. I like metacharacters to an extent. I don't really see the need for open and close quotes. I think they look funny in sans-serif fonts, which includes the default LJ fonts. But that's just an aesthetics thing. The only time it becomes a problem for me is when I'm copying stuff from my (or someone else's) LJ into an IM. Trillian doesn't support Unicode. Woe.
 
posted by [identity profile] realinterrobang.livejournal.com at 03:16am on 2005-01-04
I think looking up the numbers for the alternate characters is a PITA, personally, and I don't think I'd do it in a LJ, unless I had a damned good reason. They're not something I'd just sort of normally be able to carry around in my head, after all.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:29am on 2005-01-04
I bet if there were any you used often, the codes would stick in your brain just like certain subsets of the ASCII chart used to be on tap for me. I had to type "CHR$(34)", "CHR$(13)", etc. a lot way back when.

Actually, if I were going to start using the punctuation that HTML doesn't have named codes for in LJ, I would just invent my own mnemonics for them and write a shell script that translated them into the numeric codes with sed before invoking clive (the LJ client I use). Similarly for my web site, since I'm already running pages through PHP before uploading for other reasons, I'd just add some macro definitions for convenient mnemonics.

But yeah, while starting out it would be a PITA. I'm a bit surprised that HTML doesn't use named entities for those marks.
 
posted by [identity profile] realinterrobang.livejournal.com at 07:23am on 2005-01-04
OTOH, I've never really had any reason to learn any of them, even of the punctuation marks I use often, like the em-dash and so on. Besides which, anything other than dumb quotes looks odd in a sans-serif font, especially on something like a blog or LJ or whatever.

Incidentally, go read my tech rant. You're not the only one who has interoperability/accessibility problems at times... :D
ckd: small blue foam shark (Default)
posted by [personal profile] ckd at 03:25am on 2005-01-04
I both enjoy the seemingly-limitless bounds of Unicode (ah, Mac OS X; the Terminal supports it nicely) and yet still tend to stick to ASCIIisms in blogging. I think it's mostly because I've been doing this computer-mediated communication stuff so long that I remember when ISO Latin 1 was a huge step forward, long after I was set in my ways.

How set in my ways am I? I still put two spaces after a sentence-ending punctuation mark, that's how set in my ways I am.

But, just for the sake of experimentation: can I type 日本語? Can I talk about Frosty the ☃? How messed up will this comment look, since I've been typing (er, generating anyway) raw Unicode into it? Will my mailed copy be usable?
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 04:01am on 2005-01-04
In Opera 7.54 those characters show up as "not in this font" empty square boxes. The emailed version had a bunch of '=xx' codes which I can't read without consulting a Unicode chart: "=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=EF=BC=9F" -- twelve codes for four characters, so in addition to looking at the chart I need a quick refresher on the various ways Unicode is re-encoded for 8-bit environments.

As for two spaces after a period, yah, me too.
 
Then again, I have all those fancy-schmancy characters turned on, because I read marginally in a bunch of character sets. :) I'm losing my Japanese a bit, though.
ext_4917: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] hobbitblue.livejournal.com at 04:40am on 2005-01-04
Pointless and annoying is my take on it - the number of times things won't show properly in email, or as used to happen in my opera browser, just as squares. And then when you copy and paste something from a webpage or from word that's got the fancy stuff in and have to go through and hand-amend it to get it to display properly? Nah, very irritating on a personal level. And using the fancy stuff assumes everyone else has software that will display it correctly, which is as arrogant as assuming everyone's browser sees flash so coding fancy animated webpages, or assuming the entire world has broadband so not bothering to reduce graphic size.

I'd rather be sure as many people as possible can see the words and the meaning, rather than find them pretty :)
 
posted by [identity profile] redaxe.livejournal.com at 06:17am on 2005-01-04
IMO blogs still are largely a text-based medium. In that case I tend toward an LCD approach, because it's a harmless courtesy to the folks who still read plain text online.

No, we haven't yet left plain text behind, and until we do (if ever), it's no skin off my nose to continue to exercise the courtesy and protocol that enable those reading in that way to do so easily.

Which is pretty much what [livejournal.com profile] hobbitblue said immediately above, had I read what she'd said, before charging into dat dere briar patch :-)
 
posted by [identity profile] en-ki.livejournal.com at 01:12pm on 2005-01-04
I'm totally pro-"—", but the others aren't worth it. HTML has <q> for balanced quotation marks (even if it's usually implemented with straight quotes). You want typesetting, use TeX.

cellio: (Default)
posted by [personal profile] cellio at 04:52pm on 2005-01-04
Pointless affectation. If I'm writing for print publication I'm probably using different software (or submitting electronically to someone who does); on the web and in email, plain text is still the norm. I don't care if other people do it (so long as they do it correctly rather than inserting garbage characters by accident), but I'm way too lazy to use non-mneumonic codes for things that really don't make a difference. Heck, I don't even do accents and umlauts (I would if someone made it very easy for me), and that's way more important.
 
posted by [identity profile] madbodger.livejournal.com at 03:24pm on 2005-01-07
It varies for me. I'll often use the "easy" stuff like emdashes, but generally don't
bother with chiral quotes and so forth. I'll also use a few special characters like
hearts and a trademark symbol. And I don't think I've ever bothered with
ligatures for LJ. I've also started opting for using asterisks for *emphasis*
instead of <em> tags, as the ASCII version I get emailed when a posting
or comment gets a comment is really ugly (I don't do HTML email).

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