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posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 03:20pm on 2007-01-05 under , ,

I've lost count of the number of times various people have told me one sweetener or another is "just as good as sugar" or that I "can't taste the difference". The folks at the clinic have urged me to switch away from sugar, and at least one nurse there has used "you can't taste the difference" and "you just have to get used to it" in the same conversation. (Uh, if I couldn't taste the difference, would there be anything to "get used to"?) My mother tries to give me things sweetened with sucralose, saying that I can't possibly taste the difference. And I've heard many people parrot to me the Splenda advertising tag that "it tastes just like sugar because it's made from sugar."

People trust an advertising slogan over the evidence of their own senses?

Look, yogurt is made from milk, but it doesn't taste just like milk. Whisky is made from grains, but it doesn't taste just like bread or breakfast cereal. (Heck, you can sample two different whiskies made from the same grain and discover they taste absolutely nothing alike.) And sucralose does not taste just like sugar. Okay, maybe it does to some people, but please stop telling me what it tastes like to me. My brain receives nerve impulses from my tongue; yours does not. (Some of you should be very grateful for that, as I know that some of the things I enjoy the taste of, various friends can't stand. But I can see how other folks tasting what I taste might be useful for leverage: "Be nice to me, or I'll bite into this habanero pepper!" Or, "If you don't stop that, I'm going to drink a wasabi daiquiri!" Heh.)

I never got around to deciding whether to worry about the dangers of cyclamates or whether I'm one of the people who gets headaches from aspartame -- I could never stand the tastes enough to consume meaningful quantities. Splenda is better than most of the others (for my taste buds), I'll give it that, but I still find the aftertaste unpleasant. The same goes for stevia (a plant extract). And I really don't like the idea of going out of my way to eat things I don't like. Yeah, if I'm really really hungry and the only food that'll be available for the next several hours is okra, I'll deal; but to deliberately make things taste bad and then work to "get used to it" strikes me as being ... wrong. I believe that increasing the amount of beauty and pleasure in the world is a moral good -- oh, there are other very important goals, some of which trump "increase beauty" when they conflict, but increasing beauty does make my list of Things One Ought To Choose; it's not something I consider morally neutral[1] -- so making nice food taste bad rubs me the wrong way even when I can easily see the long term health benefits. (If you prefer the taste of one of the artificial sweeteners or really don't have a preference, more power to you; for you, replacing sugar with something else isn't evil.)

So, for example, instead of switching to diet root beer, which tastes foul to me, I've mostly switched to lightly-flavoured seltzers, which merely taste different. If I didn't like those, I'd have to keep looking; fortunately I find them pleasant. (Unfortunately, they cost more than cheap root beer.)

But even when I do want the sweetness, all is not lost. There are sugar substitutes that I can use, depending on the quantity and what other flavours are present. Why, the just-complained-about Splenda itself works sometimes: if it's below a certain concentration, I won't notice it. That level is not enough to sweeten my morning coffee the way I like it, but the same happens to be true of stevia. And, importantly, the objectional aftertastes of sucralose and stevia are sufficiently different that if I use half-enough stevia and half-enough sucralose, I can make my coffee pleasant. (I'm also drinking it a little less sweet than I used to, but it's still within the "I like this" range, not in "I'll put up with this because I have to" territory.) And on Christmas, my mother gave me some apple pie made with sucralose that was very nice -- it was much less sweet than most people make their pies, but I liked that aspect because it let more of the appleness of the apples come through, and created a cool interplay between sweetness and tartness. When she told me it was made with sucralose instead of sugar I could detect the sucralose taste when I paid attention, but if I don't notice it without specifically looking for it then it doesn't count as making-it-taste-bad. She sent some home with me, and I quite happily enjoyed it over the next couple of days. (I know I've had other baked goods containing sucralose and found them palatable as well, but I don't recall at the moment which ones were okay and which were icky.)

So my main gripe here is not that Splenda is evil per se, but rather that it Really Bugs Me when people repeat the advertising bogon that "it tastes just like sugar". No, no, it really doesn't. If Mom had tried to make that pie as sweet as some commercial pies, using sucralose, the resut would have been abominable.

The same goes for the various sugar alcohols, some of which I find unpleasant when I can taste them but can be used below my 'notice this' threshold, and others of which I like when used in ways that work for my sense of taste. There are some candies made with xylitol that I like better than nearly-identical versions made with sugar! And, yes, there are also some xylitol-containing foods that taste noticeably wrong to me. In general, xylitol is the least-objectionable sugar substitute I've found so far (though I'm not sure it would taste right in coffee). Alas, it seems to be the least common. (I can deal with small amounts of sorbitol, but I tend to notice it early; I can deal with more sweetness from maltitol than from sorbitol before noticing objectionable overtones -- I don't know whether it's a greater or lesser quantity because I haven't gotten around to looking up the relative sweetness of the two chemicals.) Of course, there's the laxative effect of the sugar alcohols, which can be a problem if one consumes more candy than planned -- for me this seems to be more of a factor in chocolate than in hard candies.

So I'm willing to make changes to my diet for health reasons, including eating some of the things I like less often or in smaller quantities, and looking for healthier things-I-like, but I'm not willing to make my food taste bad. Better to eat something entirely different than to ruin something I enjoyed and then try to get used to the ruined version. Merely tasting different is okay, but bad is, well, bad.

And don't try to tell me two things taste the same when I can so easily tell them apart. Telling me that you can't taste the difference is fine, if it's true; telling me that I can't is kind of bizarre as well as being factually incorrect.

[1] So I'm basically making a hedonist argument here, but whether I'm technically a hedonist depends, I suppose, on whether I see those other moral goods that take precedence over beauty and pleasure to be inherently good and inherently more significant than beauty, or merely as worthwhile sacrifices/investments to achieve a long term increase in overall pleasure worldwide. I'll have to think about that some more, but it's probably worth an entry of its own.

There are 21 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com at 08:25pm on 2007-01-05
Interesting to read. I've noticed I don't really care one way or another about aspartame or sucralose . . . . except when it's just too damned sweet and cloying and without enough to counter it, such as when they put it in a soda the wrong way. Hence I don't mind diet coke but I hate coke zero, and I despise those things that call themselves water but are in fact diet fruit sodas.
 
posted by [identity profile] wilhelmina-d.livejournal.com at 08:34pm on 2007-01-05
The thing is - it does taste just the same - to whomever is saying it. It's not that they're necessarily parrotint the advertising but that they cannot taste the difference. I for one can only tell the difference if I put first sugar on my tongue and then Splenda on my tongue, and then it's mainly 'cause Splenda has a fizzy, powdery texture rather than the sweetness factor. It's just people coming from their own perspective.

It's like Himself and I about color. I can look at one of those paint swatch thingies with six colors and see six different colors while Himself will look at it and with NO sarcasm or snideness say he only sees two or three colors. It's because to him the colors really are the same, where my mind is boggled that he can't tell that they're vastly different hues and shades.

Just remember that every communication (including the one I'm typing right now) is made within the context of the communicator's experience, no matter how much thought or care for the communicatee there may be.
 
posted by [identity profile] wilhelmina-d.livejournal.com at 08:39pm on 2007-01-05
PS - I missed this when I originally read the rant:

And don't try to tell me two things taste the same when I can so easily tell them apart. Telling me that you can't taste the difference is fine, if it's true; telling me that I can't is kind of bizarre as well as being factually incorrect.


I always think of that being the "you - general" as opposed to "you - specific". A failing of the modern English language. Sorry for missing the pertinent paragraph.
 
posted by [identity profile] old-hedwig.livejournal.com at 08:34pm on 2007-01-05
I would far prefer to drink plain water than artificially sweetened juice or soda. I avoid any but home-made baked goods most of the time, I would rather eat a smaller serving less often than crappy artificially sweetened cookies. Fortunately I'm perfectly happy with unsweetened coffee, and prefer honey in my tea.
 
posted by [identity profile] blueeowyn.livejournal.com at 08:48pm on 2007-01-05
It is amazing what some people can taste that others can't. My Mom couldn't believe that red M&M's tasted bad to me until they blindfolded me and I told her which were red and which were a different color. The dye tastes nasty to me (many red sodas and candies have the same problem ... even decorating frosting).
 
posted by [identity profile] lysystratae.livejournal.com at 05:54pm on 2007-01-06
Red frosting is the worst - black's almost as bad, because you have to use some of the same ingredients to get a good black. We used to warn people in the bakery I worked at who wanted a lot of red about it,because there's no way around it (currently). I don't really notice it in small quantities, like M&Ms - it's there, but minor enough that I don't mind.
 
posted by [identity profile] jltraut.livejournal.com at 09:21pm on 2007-01-05
I grew up being allergic to a lot of things, and I got really, REALLY tired of people telling me that ice milk was "just as good" or worse, "tasted better than" real ice cream... you know, the stuff that all the other kids got to eat. I could certainly tell the difference even at eight years old. I could deal with being unable to eat real ice cream most of the time, but I really resented people LYING about it.

I can tell the difference between coke and pepsi, much less diet coke and diet pepsi -- I don't know why the artificial sweetners taste okay to me in iced tea I make myself but taste so icky in commercially made drinks, but they do. So yep, I understand completely, and yes, I agree -- it's easier to eat or drink something ELSE than force oneself to consume food that tastes WRONG. (A lot of diet food is like that, for some reason... it's easier to give up the offending food or eat something else entirely than attempt to choke down the chemical-tasting "low-whatever" version.)

When someone is facing what is to them a significant lifestyle switch, or having to give up a food or activity that they actually LIKED, telling them they "won't miss it a bit" or treating their feelings as trivial things... it may be intended as encouragement, but that isn't the message getting through. ::grumbles::

::huggles:: to Glenn...
 
could deal with being unable to eat real ice cream most of the time, but I really resented people LYING about it.

Well, they were grown-ups. I learned pretty early on that most grown-ups lie about stuff. (It wasn't until much later that I realised it's because they lie to themselves so much, lying to other people just comes naturally.)

*Hugs* and good luck to Glenn... sorry bout the tangential rant. (-:
 
posted by [identity profile] jeanniemac.livejournal.com at 09:30pm on 2007-01-05
I will agree with you about the taste of artificial sweeteners. Spenda is the best by far, but they all taste wrong to me and they all have an unpleasent aftertaste. Nutrasweete gives me vicious headaches, so I stay far, far away from products containing it.

And as to taste particularities, I have issues with alcohol and hot peppers(and curries). I don't taste flavor, I taste ALCOHOL or HOT. Either ingredient kills any other flavor the dish might have for me (and any flavor of any other food I eat for several hours afterwards). And the fact that hot foods give me heartburn and alcohol makes me throw up and break out in hives, has pretty much put the damper on those 2 ingredients in my life.
 
posted by [identity profile] jmthane.livejournal.com at 09:46pm on 2007-01-05
[livejournal.com profile] tarsa can not only taste the difference between sweeteners (sugar, honey, stevia, and anything artificial) - the artificial sweeteners actually make her *ill*. So to that nurse (and anyone else) who says "you can't taste the difference", I call *BULLSHIT!!!* (in my best Penn Jillette imitation).
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea, in a friend's kitchen (Default)
posted by [personal profile] redbird at 09:55pm on 2007-01-05
Someone trying to argue me out of my own perceptions is doing an evil thing. Even if what I saw was a hallucination or a special effect, the approach there should be "you were tripping/that was faked on the back lot, the Martian didn't really eat Mayor Bloomberg alive" rather than "you didn't see a Martian eat the mayor."

Good points about different flavors, including ones starting from the same or similar ingredients. I'll happily drink unsweetened iced tea, if the basic tea is decent; mostly I make my own, and sometimes put a little sugar in (approximately a teaspoon per quart), and some lemon or lime juice. (My nephew drinks ridiculous quantities of commercial iced tea, Nestea and such; I don't know where he got the taste for it.)

I remember disliking the taste of saccharin, finding it noticeably bitter. I've had a stevia leaf, but don't think I've ever had it used as a sweetener (the taste was at the Jardin Botanique in Montreal, in their scent/taste/texture garden).
 
posted by [identity profile] leiacat.livejournal.com at 11:49pm on 2007-01-05
To me, most artificial sweeteners are not only "not the same", they aren't even sweet. They are distinctly bitter. I am grateful that at present I don't have to substitute sugar with anything else, because so far the only non-sugar I can stand is stevia.
 
posted by [identity profile] sister-devora.livejournal.com at 01:38pm on 2007-01-06
Yeah, me too. My mom made me a blackberry pie with splenda, and I told her that not only could I taste the difference, but that pie was likely an Abomination before the Lord, and that I would infinitely prefer just to eat blackberries straight, or even totally unsweetened pie than to ever consume something that bitter again.

As for sodas, I've got a real addiction to Abali yogurt soda, particularly with the mint extract. Luckily, it's unsweetened. For more frequent consumption (because there are limits to how much salt any one human should consume) seltzer with a squeeze of lime is perfect, as is water with a squeeze of lime. I'm in trouble if the citrus crop is wrecked, but otherwise I'm doing fine.
 
posted by [identity profile] leiacat.livejournal.com at 04:37pm on 2007-01-06
I'm not into seltzer, and lemon/lime in water makes my tastebuds feel like there's something in the water that needs hiding. I guess I'm ok so long as they have either bottled water or decent filter systems. Or, of course, alcohol. :)
 
posted by [identity profile] thespian.livejournal.com at 03:50am on 2007-01-06
one of the worst things about the seizures has been the damage I've done to my tongue; I've actually destroyed about a sixth of my tastebuds in the course of biting my tongue so frequently and severely. I am a supertaster, however, so the parts of my tongue that still work are very sensitive. Part of this works in with my dislike of alcohols and coffee (not uncommon in supertasters), and that before the tongue biting started, I used to be able to identify honeys according to flower type with my eyes closed (not so much anymore, though I can still tell the difference between honeys, and usually tell some characteristics (I once ticked off my mother, who insisted I couldn't do this, by saying, blindfolded, "Oooh. Slight cool taste, almost like mint, and a thick texture despite the fact it's not creamed. I can't tell you what it is exactly, but I bet it's from New Zealand! Probably towards the north." It was Manuka monofloral from the North Island. Served her right for all those years of making me eat turnips beaten with mashed potatoes and insisting I couldn't possibly taste them).

Oddly, I really, REALLY like Diet Coke. I really love the taste of aspartame in it, though I'm not fond of it anywhere else (I merely like it more than I like sugar in soda, which cloys me). All Pepsi tastes *far* too sweet to me, sugared or faked.
 
posted by [identity profile] not-the-pope.livejournal.com at 04:37am on 2007-01-06
I'm with you. I have not yet met an artificial sweetener that does not make my tongue want to turn inside out immediately upon contact, although stevia in coffee admittedly avoids this better than most. I have therefore turned to mostly drinking water or 1% milk, except for my morning coffee which will have real sugar and milk (half-and-half if at all possible). If neither is available, then so much for coffee. Why drink something that tastes bad?
 
posted by [identity profile] trouble131.livejournal.com at 03:24pm on 2007-01-06
I also have never met an artificial sweetener that I could live with. They all taste like foul by-products of a chemistry experiment gone wrong, fermented for 2 years in a rusty can, and then shoved up the rear-end of a large rodent.

I also agree with [personal profile] wilhelmina_d that it might simply be a taste bud perception thing.

When I was in 8th grade, we did this thing in science class with strip of paper to see if we were "tasters" or not. If you could taste the chemical on the paper, your tongue was more sensitive.
 
posted by [identity profile] flaviarassen.livejournal.com at 05:36pm on 2007-01-06
Two things.

You cannot really bake with Splenda, no matter what they day.
We could all taste the difference in the cherry pie I made for
The Hubby (tm), but it was slight - and I'm not fond of pie
anyway. But then came his birthday, and my annual attempt to
perfect a chocolate strawberry shortcake. This time with
Splenda (tm). And I knew there would be trouble when I saw
the directions: half a cup of baking powder. And sure enough,
the cake was extremely light - to the point of being brittle,
and with a horrendous undertaste. My family could have been
being polite when they said "aftertaste", or they could just
not be as sensitive ad I am.

Which leads me to story #2.

In a Mexican restaurant, and deeming the black bean soup
the perfect compromise between keeping kosher & eating in a
treife restaurant, only to have the soup reek of alcohol!
I kept insisting everyone else at the table - 5 others,
including the future Hubby (tm) - and everyone kept telling
me they were tasting nothing and I was imagining it. Until I
called the waiter over & asked him what type of booze was
in the soup. And he readily answered "Beer." At which point I
remarked that they ought to mention that on the menu, since
they list the ingredients, and I graciously accepted the
apologies of those gathered. :-)
 
posted by [identity profile] lysystratae.livejournal.com at 05:50pm on 2007-01-06
Exactly!!!!! Luckily I'm ok with the flavor of nutrasweet, and I kinda like stevia, but you can definitely taste the difference, even wtih splenda. Plus splenda has an odd mouth-feel to it (to me at least). it also takes a metric fuckton more splenda to get something to the same level of sweetness as regular sugar - which ups the icky taste factor quite a bit. I'd gotten to the point where I can use 2 equal or 3 sugars in my coffee, but it took 7 splendas to hit the same level of 'sweet taste', and the aftertaste was just too thick.

Of course, I'm also one of those annoying people who can generally figure out your recipe ingredients in just a couple of bites...
 
posted by [identity profile] kolraashgadol.livejournal.com at 12:10am on 2007-01-08
Hey Glenn,
You're almost certainly a super-taster, like me and many of the other responders on the list (I'm particularly weird - if you look at my tongue It sometimes weirds people out because 1. it has more er, crannies than a normal tongue - (which usually has none, as best I can tell), and in those crannies are tastebuds - so I have more of them and - this is the particularly weird piece - 2. you can see mine with the naked eye.
Anyway - yes, artifical sweeteners, stevia, everything - I can taste it all (although oddly, chewing gum seems to be the one exception. Except it gives me nightmares now, so I don't really chew it very often). The one thing that doesn't seem to bother me at all is maltodextrin (one of the alcohol sugars). It tastes a bit different than sugar, but I don't find it especially unpleasant.
I do find that to me it's simply not worth the bother to eat things that are sweetened with oddities (when I was pregnant and on a low sugar diet, I ate my required chocolate dark, with maltodextrin. Everything else I just avoided). Luckily, except for chocolate, I'm more a savories person anyway.
 
posted by [identity profile] garnet-rattler.livejournal.com at 03:13am on 2007-01-08
Not One of the fake sugars tastes 'good' to me, nor particularly sweet. [OTOH, bizarrely enough, ethanol Does. It tastes both sweet and actively good, even in ~95% pure form. Makes me wonder if my Irish ancestors carried that ~quirk.] Stevia and xylitol are the least obnoxious and I can barely stand those. As with you, xylitol is the 'best'.

When someone tells you 'you can't taste a difference', they are just demonstrating that they don't pay attention. Anyone not in the zero-taste/smell-sense group normally Can tell if they pay attention. The texture, flavor, sweetness, side-tastes, aftertaste and flavor interactions of Any sweetener is a bit different than any other. Some are similar, but *NOT* the same. Maltodextrose can be ok in certain things, rarely, for me at least.

If it tastes bad, there is a fundamental design reason to Not eat/drink it. You have millions of years (if not longer) of your ancestors Surviving partly Because they avoided things they thought were icky. Not the only factor, but it did, and still does, matter. Aspartame and Splenda, as well as many others, are systemic poisons to at least small sections of the population. Ingesting even minor amounts of some during pregnancy can result in problems on the same order as low-level mercury- or lead poisoning in the fetus, most commonly retardation and allergies.

I should admit here (in the interests of ~full disclosure), that I am more sensitive to odors and flavors than most nominal 'super-tasters'. And my father is far worse than I, so it definitely seems to be inherited. If one more person tries to tell me that adding some random artifical 'fragrance' improves a product, I'm going to start adding synthetic skunk oil to everything I can of theirs, just to get through to them how wrong that is. Walking through the candle or soap aisle in most stores has to be quick so I can hold my breath; otherwise, at best I'll gag, at worst, the stench of bad 'fragrances' will be covered, by vomit ...

It may also be related that any natural fiber against my skin is not generally a problem, but most petroleum polymers eventually cause me to break out in one way or another. Wool on my bare skin for days causes no problem at all, and 100% cotton is nearly as good. 100% cotton or wool is all I willingly buy to wear directly on skin for long. Nylon doesn't seem to be too bad most of the time, and most swimsuits are ok as long as don't wear them for more than a few hours. More than 60/40 cotton-poly blend, though, and I don't bother. Even over a t-shirt, it just is too itchy.

In another example, I happen to like Sunkist soda (with sugar, Not a diet version). Unfortunately, there are apparently either two plants that make it or an 'alternate flavor' chemical in the formula. About one bottle in fifteen or so that I get here has a signifcantly different flavor, more like Orange Slice than the standard Sunkist taste. Not only is not nearly as tasty, it doesn't help settle my stomach as Sunkist does, stongly implying a noteworthy chemical difference. Unless the bottling plant screws up and swaps some other soda into the Sunkist bottles? .... ;-(

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