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posted by [personal profile] eftychia at 01:29am on 2004-02-06

In our culture, there's a default assumption of heterosexuality. In the absence of clues to the contrary, most of us expect a random person we meet or hear about to be het, if we think about their orientation at all. When a clue or solid information is introduced indicating that the person is gay or bi, there's a moment of mental readjustment as this information is processed, even if we hadn't been consciously thinking of the person's orientation until then. To a large extent this actualy makes sense, since hets make up a pretty darned large majority. But it does have some unfortunate side effects, starting with the phenomenon of bi-invisibility, and to a lesser but significant extent, absence of consciousness of gay people in the minds of sheltered hets. (Similarly, there's an assumption that people are cisgendered in the absence of contrary clues, but this is a weaker statement because of the near-tautological nature of the observation that someone who passes for male is assumed to be bio-male. It's a tautology if you focus on the meaning of the word "passing", but slightly more interesting if you focus on the what makes the concept of passing meaningful and so often desirable.)

But when I read the assertion that "young people overwhelmingly support marriage equality because they have had the chance to grow up knowing that gay people are not some alien 'others,' not a threat, but their fellow Americans", I started wondering what a society would be like where there was not that default assumption of heterosexuality. I'm not envisioning the opposite, a society where homosexuality is assumed, but rather one where bisexuality is the default assumption, or where not knowing is the default so that discovering someone's orientation is never surprising, never requires readjusting one's assumptions, because there was no assumption.

I suppose what I'm imagining starts with a generation raised not to have to remind itself that all orientations are natural, but having grown up never having known any other way of looking at it.

Would some basic level of bisexuality, or at least bi-experimentation, be expected, with Kinsey 0 and Kinsey 6 folks considered freaks but everyone else just having a "type" that includes gender as a component? (Note: I don't actually like the Kinsey scale, but use it here for the convenience of being able to assume most of my audience is familier with it. When I think of orientation, I usually think of a two-dimensional system with attraction-to-men on one axis and attraction-to-women on the other and a warning label floating over one of the quadrants reminding us that it's still a simplification for convenience, not a complete model of reality.) "Oh, Janet likes blondes, and Audrey likes male brunets. Stan is a bit odd though; he takes it to an extreme. He won't even consider dating someone unless they're female. He's as weird as Judy, who only dates people who play mandolin. What a curious duck."

Or would every orientation, and every history of orientation shifts as one discovers oneself, since some people do get surprised by a previously unexpected attraction along the way, be considered equally cool, with the only real difference being somewhat more visibility for homosexuals, vastly increased visibility for bisexuals, and no assumptions made and awkwardly apologized for when discovered to be wrong?

Or would frequent use of the labels "gay" and "het" (and especially "straight") fall by the wayside as the importance of the labels diminished? The phenomena would still exist, of course, but when the label is less important, using a phrase such as "attracted to chicks" or "attracted to dudes" doesn't seem so long that it needs to be replaced with one word. Would the words, and the concept of identifying oneself on the basis of them, continue from inertia, or would orientation cease to be a matter of self-identity and just become another background fact about oneself? (Hmm ... shades of the discussion in [livejournal.com profile] vvalkyri's journal about what aspects of oneself it feels okay to "be nouned for" and which it's okay to "be verbed or adjectived for".)

What other subtle and unsubtle effects would there, or might there, be? What do the rest of you imagine having grown up in such a culture to be like?

Hmm. Too bad my books are all still in boxes in the basement. I think it's time to re-read Shadow Man by Melissa Scott. (What else should I be reading?)

There are 20 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] kathrynt.livejournal.com at 10:33pm on 2004-02-05
I use "gynophilic" and "androphilic" for "attracted to chicks" and "attracted to dudes", myself. I need to come up with a similarly clinical word that means "gender is not a key factor in attraction," since that makes more sense than "attracted to both genders."
 

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posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 10:41pm on 2004-02-05
(Wow, that was quick. I hadn't even finished proofreading it in a browser yet.)

*nod* Good words. Not sure what to do for the third word ... "anthropophilic" suggests itself as "taking gender out of the equation" but it may not be sufficiently parallel to the others to be intuitive to the listener. "Ambiphilic"?
 
posted by [identity profile] lothie.livejournal.com at 10:46pm on 2004-02-05
I'm not so sure, myself, that an assumption of bisexuality would be the ideal norm. I'm thinking more of a belief that orientation just doesn't matter, so NOTHING is weird.
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 10:53pm on 2004-02-05
Oh, I wasn't thinking of that as an ideal, so much as wondering about its likelihood compared to other possibilities. For the ideal, we're on the same page.
 
posted by [identity profile] anniemal.livejournal.com at 12:38am on 2004-02-06
Some program has just told me I'm 50-50 masculine and feminine. D'uh. I'm just an average tool-using hominid. I'm tired of thinking about the whole business. People are who they are. I am who I am. My secondary sexual characteristics do not define me as a human being. I am neither a saint nor a sociopath based on what I wash in the shower. Can't we just give up this whole categorizing thing and be who we are? Probably not. But for myself, I'm done with it. I'll look the part my parts dictate when it suits my fancy. But the whole question for me boils down to "Are you walking lightly on the earth and respecting all your fellow travelers?" I can't, apparently, get my head around gender any better than I can get it around race. (We're all the same colour on the inside"--Mom) Oh, feh. My Best Beloved says I am culturist. Uh, how do I get rid of that?
 
posted by [identity profile] dglenn.livejournal.com at 01:42am on 2004-02-06
Well that's another step, beyond what I wrote about here (though I did hint in this direction) -- I was positing a culture where there were no assumptions about sexual orientation and wondering where that would lead; you're describing a de-emphasis of gender ... which is also interesting.

"Can't we just give up this whole categorizing thing and be who we are? Probably not."

I'm trying to imagine what our culture would be like if we did. Not to have a few individuals rejecting the categories, but to have a generation having grown up without the assumptions that we currently get a constant stream of reminders of.

Less out of some utopianist notion than out of curiosity -- what would it be like?
 
posted by [identity profile] anniemal.livejournal.com at 08:46pm on 2004-02-06
You're quite right. I did take it further, but it was late and I was on the verge of sleep and had just been told what I've always known by a stupid program. Kinda like my appointment with the neurologist.

In a world where sexual orientation wasn't assumed, or mattered, there are women I'm friends with that I'd become more than friends with.

As it is, I value them as friends far too much to even risk freaking them out by suggesting we become lovers. I'd be all over my favourite neighbor, if she'd have me.

For the rest of the world, I don't know. I would like to think that it would lead to a generation of people who could relate to each other as they find each other, and express their feelings politely and gently without fear of losing a friend because they're not "normal". And respect others' rejections on the basis of monogamy as nothing personal. There are lovely people who are just so constructed. I still love them. I just don't talk about some things when I'm around them.
 
posted by [identity profile] selki.livejournal.com at 01:43pm on 2004-02-07
I think categorization is a survival tool. We have all this data coming at us, and we have to process it SOMEhow (or miss the tiger/layoff/sleezoid coming our way), so we tend to filter/group it as best we can, which includes categorization. As The Police sang, "Too much information, running through my brain!" and we're going MORE in that direction, not less. Like so many of the internal tools we evolved with, there's not a lot of fine-tuning available; not easy to turn off filtering for just some data, unless we get better at pre-processing. Or something.
 
posted by [identity profile] redaxe.livejournal.com at 03:54am on 2004-02-06
. . . Judy . . .only dates people who play mandolin.

Man, I have to practice my mandolin more!

*****

For a sideways sfnal look at the issue, go back and read The Left Hand of Darkness (Ursula K. LeGuin, of course). I suspect that she has some basic truths there:

  • If biology produces a society in which it is neither relevant nor normal to value one gender over the other, people will still differentiate themselves into groups.
  • Each group will look down on the others, whatever the basis of their differences (geography, economics, bloodline, profession).
  • There will still be sexual perversions.
  • EVERYONE will look down on perverts.


*****

If you assume bisexuality, you'll probably see some (possibly mild, probably with elements of serious) social prejudice against those at the ends of the spectrum, the way you describe Stan. How much prejudice will depend on a few things: the degree to which such prejudice is itself tolerated and supported by the society, the extent of the behavior itself (does society actively teach bisexuality as a virtue, or does it simply discourage specialization? -- and either way, nature/nurture still applies, probably maintaining a significant fraction if not the majority of individuals specializing more rather than less), and the intensity of the prejudice.

*whew* Been up to long to think straight on this or any subject (pun ambiguously intended ;-) but there's lots to think about here. One last thought: what sort of churches/religions are prevalent in a world that can accept and even promote open and civilized sexual behavior?

Later...
 
posted by [identity profile] aliza250.livejournal.com at 04:16am on 2004-02-06
using a phrase such as "attracted to chicks" or "attracted to dudes" doesn't seem so long that it needs to be replaced with one word.

Years ago, I coined the words "androphile" and "gynophile" for just those meanings, and have been rather gratified the very few times I've seen other people use them. :-)
 
posted by (anonymous) at 06:00am on 2004-02-06
Nancy Lebovitz here:

When I saw the title, I thought the article was going to be about a general default of uncertainty--people really not making assumptions when they don't have information. This would probably have all sorts of implications, but I'm having trouble with unpacking them.

For a starter, you probably couldn't use clothing to convey much except whether you're interested in how you dress. No one would believe that business suit = reliability.
redbird: closeup of me drinking tea, in a friend's kitchen (Default)

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posted by [personal profile] redbird at 10:14am on 2004-02-06
Either that, or clothing could be used to signify what you were planning to do then: a business suit means you're going to spend the day on business, certain sorts of dress-up mean party, jeans and boots might mean "I'm planning on doing physical labor", a uniform would mean "I'm working at this restaurant/banquet/store right now" (which it mostly already does). I wonder what the "hi, just going about an ordinary day" (which might include a visit to the doctor, reading a book, cooking, what-have-you) clothing would be like.
 

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posted by (anonymous) at 05:05am on 2004-02-07
Nancy Lebovitz here:

Afaik, the reason a bueiness suit is a plausible indicator of "I'm planning to do business" is that enough people think it signifies orderliness and reliability. However, everyone from Enron was wearing a business suit. They were assuredly spending their time on business, but they weren't exactly intending what most people thought they were signalling.
 
posted by [identity profile] puzzledance.livejournal.com at 08:16am on 2004-02-06
In the absence of clues to the contrary, most of us expect a random person we meet or hear about to be het, if we think about their orientation at all.

I'd say that this is a pretty accurate description of me, especially the part about "if we even think about their orientation at all." I don't usually think about a person's orientation, unless I'm interested and I'm trying to figure out if they're attracted to me. Otherwise, I don't consider it to be particularly relevant.

I'm somewhat more likely to make an assumption about somebody's orientation if they do something incredibly blatantly stereotypical. I'll probably make an assumption if I've met the person they're dating. I suppose, in those cases, I should try to keep more in mind that the person might still be bi.

I have noticed that I sometimes subconsciously assume that people are het, but I don't realize it unless it somehow comes up in conversation. I had one friend at work who always referred to her "honey." I assumed that her honey was male - in part because my friend's manager would use male pronouns when making conversation (Friend: "I saw my honey this weekend!" Manager: "How is he doing?"). It never occurred to me that her manager had just made a gender assumption; I thought he knew, perhaps from having met my friend's honey at a company outing.

It wasn't until I got to know my friend a little better that I happened to ask her, just out of curiosity, "What's your honey's name?" Her answer was, "Um... uh... Nancy." Oh. Ok. Oops. She thought I might not take it well, but I only felt a bit surprised to have been wrong all that time. I don't know if my friend ever let anyone else on the project know that her honey was female. We did get a lot of good chuckles over the project manager, though, who insisted repeatedly, "I've NEVER met a gay person in my life." We would ask him, "How do you know? Maybe you have and you just didn't know it?" "I would know," he would reply, in all seriousness. He was a jerk in oh, so many ways.

A couple of years later, this same friend and another friend from work, who were working together at the time, asked me, independently but on the same day, whether another coworker was gay. I had never given it any consideration. I didn't have any reason to think that he was. I had some reason to think that he wasn't - he'd told me once that he'd thought he was going to marry a girl he'd dated in high school, but that she'd dropped contact with him during college. I just couldn't answer the question, at all, and settled for, "I have no idea."

I've always find it a bit strange when people ask me about somebody else's orientation. How should I know?

A couple of years ago, one of my cousins, when she heard that one of our other cousins (my favorite cousin) had a girlfriend, commented that his family probably felt relieved, because she and her siblings had always thought that he was gay. I asked her, "Why would you think that? Did he tell you?" He hadn't, but she was just sure that she was right. "Every family has it's gay person," she said, "and in ours, it's him." Even my sweetie said, "You have to admit, he is kind of effeminate."

I was shocked. Not so much that he might be gay, but that she would have not only thought about it, but discussed it with her siblings. It had never occurred to me to wonder about the orientation of any of my cousins. As for my favorite cousin, I have to admit that it's hard for me to think of my sweet baby cousin as gay. Yes, there may be a bit of denial in there, but I think it's largely because I'd never thought of the possibility before, and because he's never given me a concrete reason to think that he is. Heck, it's hard for me to think of my sweet baby cousin as having a love life, never mind with whom. In any case, I figure that if he's gay and wants me to know, he'll tell me. If he doesn't tell me, it's not really my business, anyway.

I usually think of a two-dimensional system with attraction-to-men on one axis and attraction-to-women on the other and a warning label floating over one of the quadrants reminding us that it's still a simplification for convenience, not a complete model of reality.)

I like this concept a lot.

 

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posted by [identity profile] katrinb.livejournal.com at 02:04pm on 2004-02-06
When I worked at the local KFC one summer between my freshman and senior years, when I had just come out to myself as bi, I once scared the heck out of a manager...
He informed me, after a "stereotypically gay" man had left the restaurant, that he could "always tell that kind." I smiled sweetly and said, "Oh, really? Would you have guessed me?" I think I made him choke. I don't think he ever believed me.

 

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posted by [identity profile] puzzledance.livejournal.com at 06:26am on 2004-02-08
Your story is pretty funny, and you've reminded me of something else. The project manager with the conviction that he'd never met a gay person was from Romania. Maybe that had something to do with his attitude? I would guess that it was pretty oppressive towards gays, especially in the 60s and 70s, when he lived there. Just thinking about this project manager being from Romania, however, reminded me of how the topic of gays ever came up in the office. We learned that a new guy was going to join our project, and his first name was -- I kid you not -- Dyke.

The first couple of times the project manager mentioned the new person's name (before Dyke actually started working on the project), most of the other people on the team couldn't help expressing disbelief over the name ("Dyke? Did you say Dyke?" *snerk*), in part because the project manager obviously had no idea what the word meant. Finally, he asked us, "What? What's so funny about that name?" I thought he was going to pass out when we told him. He turned bright red. After that, he almost couldn't say Dyke's name, tentatively stuttering it out every time he had to say it.

(For the record, Dyke turned out to be a tall, married black man from Africa, arrogant, and a terrible co-worker)
 
posted by [identity profile] sjo.livejournal.com at 12:15pm on 2004-02-06
Interestingly, because I have a reputation for being sexually adventurous, people just tend to assume that I am bi. Well... I'll rarely rule anything out, and there are certainly a couple women who are very special to me... but with those few exceptions, I just don't seem to be drawn that way.

So one wonders, does that make me less "adventurous" or just less of a fulfillment of the "typical male fantasy"™?
 
In our culture, there's a default assumption of heterosexuality. In the absence of clues to the contrary, most of us expect a random person we meet or hear about to be het, if we think about their orientation at all.

How about politics? Here's another aspect where a label is a shorthand for a lot of things. I think most of us `assume the uncertain' for political leanings, in the absence of other clues, although political clues may come forth more readily. And the nature/nurture bit applies as well -- you could just do what your family has always done, or you could have personal convictions. A big shortcoming here is that the two major labels (Dem/Rep) have so many things rolled into their platforms that neither fits well on the people I know, and the niche labels aren't well understood by the masses. (Heck, if these major labels were really understood by the masses, they'd stop electing people who advance hurtful policies. So much for the masses.)

And when you consider the ruckus over gender-free marriage (and gender orientation in general), you tie these two threads into a knot.
 
I think non-sexuals are the most discrimated against
some dogs just like to lay on the porch in the rays of the sun
 
Now I'm trying to remember where I found an article about a non sexual movement...

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